Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Senator should hang on. I have not been given notice on this. I would advise the Senator to table a motion on the Adjournment or raise it in the normal way. I have not heard of that meeting. If there was a meeting, I do not believe it is exceptional. The issue of cigarette smuggling is well known and the Government has a view on it. I do not believe it is an exceptional issue. However, there is a way to raise the issue and I encourage the Senator to do so and get a full statement from Government accordingly.

I thank colleagues who have contributed to this useful debate. In particular I thank Senator Jim D'Arcy and others who have repeatedly raised the issue over the past two years and have sought to bring public profile to it. Senator Byrne is absolutely right in saying this is not a victimless crime. We need to work with the HMRC authorities in Northern Ireland to see this as an all-Ireland issue. Even though many of these laundering operations are located close to the Border, as colleagues have said, this is a nationwide problem resulting in the loss of tens if not hundreds of millions of euro. It is impossible to estimate the lost revenue to the State. However, it would not be wildly wrong to suggest it might be €100 million. No one knows exactly because it is an illegal activity that is impossible to quantify.

In terms of trying to bring the debate to some conclusion and what are the net issues, Senator Quinn put his finger on it when he asked about how the courts are operating the very strict new penalties we have put in place as a consequence of changes made in the Finance Acts in recent years. For the information of the House, in 2011 there were four convictions for these offences, with fines of between €7,500 and €10,000 and 16 people were arrested in the course of fuel laundering operations, in respect of which files have been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions. I understand cases are being pursued in regard to five of those convictions. In 2012, there were two court convictions for laundered oil offences, with a fine of €2,500 imposed in one of those cases and a two-year suspended sentence imposed in the other. The question that arises based on that information is, are the penalties provided for in legislation being imposed? That is an issue for the courts. I do not wish to criticise the Judiciary in that regard, except to say that there is a public issue of concern. The Oireachtas has responded by way of additional penalties and there is now a responsibility on the courts to impose those penalties in the set of circumstances faced by them on a daily basis.

Senators Barrett, Quinn and Harte posed the question of whether the imposition of a ban on green diesel and the introduction of a rebate system would rid us of this type of crime overnight. The new system of licensing people in the first instance, and in the second requiring them to make monthly returns by e-mail in terms of what they are or are not using, will indicate pretty rapidly whether or not this is having an impact. If it is not having an impact, we will then have to look at the rebate issue and a ban on green diesel. I suppose there would be financial issues arising, including how much would it cost, how open ended would it be, to whom it would relate and if it would be based, as stated by Senator Harte, on a previous year's return. We will soon find out whether our licensing and monitoring provisions, which have effectively been in place since the middle of last year, are having an impact on the ground. We now know for the first time what is coming into the country. There are two ports in the country through which this diesel is being brought in. We now know how much is being brought in and how it is being distributed, which information we did not know up to now. We will now get a legitimate picture of how much is being distributed. That is important.

Senator Barrett is correct that the criminals have been one step ahead of us thus far. We have received 12 submissions from interested parties who believe they have the technical solution, by way of a new marker, to this problem. However, as Senator Barrett rightly stated, the criminals will be only seconds away from making redundant any new marker established. If we are not successful by way of the new operational memorandum imposed between North and South, we will have to look at this again. It is an open question as to whether or not it will work in the fullness of time.

I regard all of the contributions made today as very useful. I will forward a copy of the transcript of this debate to the Revenue Commissioners and Customs to highlight to them the issues raised. This is a matter under ongoing operational review and closely monitored by the Irish Government, HRMC and the Northern Ireland Executive. I have met already with officials from Northern Ireland and hope to meet shortly with the relevant Minister. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, is in ongoing contact with the Northern Ireland Minister, Mr. Wilson, on this issue. Senator Reilly is correct that there is a need for greater profile around this. It is akin to the argument made when the Criminal Assets Bureau tried to seize a building, namely, communities worse affected by drugs need to know that the proceeds of the crime have been used for useful projects in those communities. There was some public profile around the Criminal Assets Bureau. Senator Reilly is correct that we also need a profile around this. We need to modernise how we get that message out, particularly when convictions are secured. As stated by Senator Byrne, this is not a victimless crime and people need to know that those involved will be brought before the courts. The criminals also need to know that if they get involved in this activity they risk prosecution.

As far as I am concerned, the Government is on top of this problem. We continue to work closely with all agencies on how to resolve it. This debate has greatly helped the public profile of this issue in terms of trying to tackle it on a multifaceted basis.