Martin Conway (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I listened with interest to the debate. I have regard for the contributions that Senators MacSharry and O'Brien have made during my two years in the Seanad. The theme of the legislation is extremely important and as Senator Norris quite rightly said, it deals with the most vulnerable people in society.

Many people have very little time for banks and I would probably include myself in that category, but I have no tolerance at all of moneylenders. The place of moneylenders in society is close to the bottom of the barrel. I am glad this matter is on the Seanad agenda, as it gives a forum for discussion of a topic that comes in under the radar in comparison to dealing with the euro billions in bailouts and the 150,000 mortgages in arrears. People may owe as little as €400 to €500 to appalling individuals who have no sense of social justice, decency and responsibility. These people, who may live in local authority housing, matter. They may not have mortgages of €100,000 plus in arrears. These people are managing just about to pay their rent but are being scalded and hounded by these merciless individuals. The reality is that people who use moneylenders possibly do not have the skillset to know their legal rights, to know what protections are in place and that is the reason it has become apparent to certain groups. Senator O'Keeffe has been telling me about the group in Sligo which is doing phenomenal work on behalf of people. They may feel that the current legislation is not being properly implemented. That is the major challenge.

I take on board the comment by the Minister that were this Bill to become law, those engaging with it would be dealing with replication. We do not want to create that situation, but in fairness I do not think that was the intent. I think the Opposition has made a very genuine effort to raise an extremely important issue and the Minister's words were very conciliatory in that regard, when he said that he does not knock down Bills in Private Members' time easily, as he did not like this being done to him when he was in opposition.

The Minister expressed the fear of duplication, with more cogs in the wheel that were unnecessary, making the bike unsafe. The major problem is that if this Bill were enacted, it would create a situation in which the most vulnerable people could become more confused about their rights than they are at present. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, who is a very loyal contributor to this House. It was remiss of me not to have done so earlier. The challenge for the Government is to focus and become challenged to ensure that the most vulnerable people know their rights when it comes to moneylenders. There are some very useful ways of channelling that type of information. Citizens Information and MABS have already been mentioned but there are other ways. One could send out explanatory literature twice yearly with social welfare payments, explaining in simple language what people's rights are when dealing with moneylenders. It is only a tiny minority of people who find themselves in these difficult situations who have the wherewithal to go to the Garda Síochána to make a formal complaint and request the assistance of the State mechanisms to assist them. I can remember a case about four years ago, in which a client of mine found herself in an appalling situation with an illegal moneylender and her PPS card was being requested. I told her that she and I would both meet the individual and that would deal with the situation. We did. An Garda Síochána got involved and dealt with the situation very quickly. The matter was resolved.

We need the Government to sit down with organisations such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, MABS and a number of other agencies and perhaps set up an interdepartmental working group or a working group with representation from those various different groups to identify ways of communicating to the people who are the most vulnerable what their rights are, what they can expect in terms of protection from the State and how to deal with moneylenders. We have already heard from the Minister that one cannot be a moneylender in this country unless one has a licence. If a moneylender has no licence he or she is in breach of the law and is acting illegally. Second, the business model and client base of licensed moneylenders must be continuously audited to ensure they are acting with the utmost integrity in dealing with their clients.

I commend Senator MacSharry for raising this issue. The group in Sligo dealing with this issue is doing very good work and I commend his colleague on the council for the work she has done.

I would like to see what is happening in Sligo reflected in other counties, so that these groups mushroom throughout the country to equip the people with knowledge. It has been a very worthwhile debate and I sincerely hope we see some action as a result.