David Norris (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and the Bill, as it is important we maintain the high standards in this area. We should also keep the lines quite clear in certain areas. I have had an interest in the matter for quite a long time. Over ten years ago I took part in a UN delegation to Thailand and was the chief author of a report on the trafficking of children and adults for sexual purposes. What I found was deeply disturbing. Ironically, I was rewarded by having this trip quoted against me by somebody, who I think probably knew the real situation, as if I had gone for the purposes of sexual exploitation myself. I say this just to show that I have a track record in the area and I have been interested in it for a very long time.

We all remember the disastrous effect on human lives of some of this rather horrible trade in Wexford a number of years ago, when some Kurdish people were brought from the Continent in a lorry that was sealed, with a number of them taking seriously ill or dying as a result. The practice can cause death at its extreme. When people are sold into the further exploitation of prostitution they can be subjected to gross violation and abuse of human rights, which is extremely worrying.

I support the Minister of State in this and particularly when she states that a person found guilty of human trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation, labour exploitation or exploitation with removal of human organs is liable to life imprisonment. I do not believe exploitation with regard to organ removal happens in this country and I would be very surprised if it did but we see some of the repercussions, and nothing is being done. For example, the recent exhibition in the Rotunda Hospital contained parts of people who never gave any consent for their bodies to be exposed, and it has been suggested by the Falun Gong that some of these people were members of the Falun Gong who had organs removed. We should take such issues seriously before we stand up piously and speak about things that only occur in other countries; when they land at our door we are delighted, and the exhibition was advertised all over national radio. It was an obscenity to have allowed this exhibition and there should be an inquiry into the issue. If we are serious about these matters we should raise them when they happen, as they do regularly in China and in India. It is one thing to be whiter than white in this country but we should really attack the problems where they exist.

There is an issue with begging, as young people are exposed to exploitation through begging on streets. It is a subject matter in itself, as is slavery and servitude, which happens to a certain extent with domestic help and the likes of Gama workers whose fate was exposed first in the other House by a left-wing Independent Deputy. It was only taken up by the then Government after it was repeatedly exposed in both Houses. I am very glad this Government has shown a serious commitment in that regard.

I raise another matter which has a tangential connection but it would be very dangerous to mix it up with the Bill, namely, prostitution. We should consider the issue with clear eyes and not a sanctimonious attitude. The Swedish example has been quoted and there has been a certain level of interest but it has not stopped prostitution. The kind of prostitution it attacks is largely dying out anyway, as the practice is now co-ordinated through phones and the Internet. It will not be stamped out. My interest is in the welfare of the women involved, and I have had to write to the relevant committee as it was not listening to these women. It refused to have some prostitutes as witnesses. If we get to a dangerous unanimity, where we are all pure as the driven snow, it will be terribly dangerous. I have spoken to one of the leading venereologists in the country, who has told me he is seriously concerned there will be a spread of disease. Australian reports provide a direct contradiction to the findings of the Swedish model.

I know I will probably be pilloried again for these comments but I believe in telling the truth. Going down this line would be extremely dangerous. I have never used the services of a prostitute but I have come in contact with them on a number of occasions. In one case a woman turned up at my house when I was relaxing on a Sunday evening. She said "Wahoo" and I said "Wahoo". She said, "Here I am", and I said "I can see that, but what are you doing?" She said that I rang for her but I told her I had not and I had no idea who she was. She said that some clients are shy and I twigged what was going on. I told her she was under a misapprehension and she knew not who she addressed, as I am probably Ireland's No. 1 fairy. She said "What?" and I told her it meant I am homosexual. She told me she was weak and asked for a drink. Having brought her in I asked her if she really wanted to do that type of work. She was extremely well dressed, highly intelligent and lovely young woman. She was being run by an agency in Cork and I brought her to where she was meant to go, which was an apartment in another part of the street. I told her that if the fellow tried anything nasty, she should tell him that I know about her and that he should get her a taxi home. I also rescued a prostitute working in the basement of the house next door.

I know about the issue at first hand so we must be careful and have a full debate on it, with not just one chorus of self-approving, moralistic and sanctimonious voices. It is very dangerous to say this has to be a crime - as was announced just beside me - without a debate, with no other position possible. We must consider these matters and I do not care if I am pilloried again. It is my responsibility as a Member of Seanad Éireann to tell the truth as I see it and try to ensure, before embarking on a particular course of action, that we can take in all the circumstances.