Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour) | Oireachtas source

As I have said before and will say again, the next time I am called to speak after Senator Norris, I will leave the Chamber. In 1996, when the original employment equality legislation was introduced, I strongly objected to it, which left me in a lonely place.

The following Sunday, when entering my local church to go to mass, I was handed a leaflet, clearly by somebody who did not know me. The leaflet, which was quite vicious, was about me and what it described as my attack on the Catholic Church and Catholic schools. Therefore, we should not underestimate the types of objections we will encounter. We will encounter some. I know for a fact that there is one person in the Gallery behind Senator Norris who actually remembers what I have described.

The Government welcomes the attention that Senator Bacik has brought to the position of LGBT people in the teaching profession who feel compelled to hide their real identify for fear of victimisation. As Senators will know, the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputies Shatter and Quinn, would have liked to have been present for the debate, but they are unable to be so as they are abroad on official business. When he was here last May speaking on this topic, the Minister for Justice and Equality stated unequivocally that he regards it as a wrong that people whose wages are paid by the taxpayer and who are employed to provide essential public services should feel intimidated or feel a need to live their lives in secret for fear that their sexual orientation or family status, for example, should become known locally and lead to victimisation by an employer. That is exactly how I see it and how my Labour Party colleagues in this House see it also.

It is important to emphasise that both parties in government fully support this initiative. One will recall the Government has undertaken in its programme for Government to ensure that people of non-faith or minority religious backgrounds and publically identified LGBT people should not be deterred from training or taking up employment as teachers in the State. Recognition must be given to the earlier initiative by Senator Averil Power. Her bravery in bringing forward the initiative must be noted. My experience tells me one does indeed need to be brave at certain times in one's political career. Senator Power's Private Members' Bill was instrumental in initiating dialogue in the House towards progressing reform in this important area of human rights. The extensive cross-party support that exists for ensuring the equal rights of citizens, irrespective of their sexual orientation, and clarifying the law in this area, was clearly illustrated by the debate on Senator Power's Bill last May. I recognise the fact that Sinn Féin has produced legislation on this matter. That support has not abated is evident from the recent Adjournment debate on 28 February on this very topic, during which Minister of State, Deputy Costello, replied on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Shatter. I express my thanks and that of the Government to Senator Ivana Bacik and the other Labour Senators for their initiative in developing this Bill and introducing it to the House.

I restate the commitment of the Minister for Justice and Equality, along with the Minister for Education and Skills, to strengthening the statutory protection for equality in this area. Within the Department of Justice and Equality, both the Minister and I have previously expressed concern about the potential impact of section 37 of the employment equality legislation on LGBT persons. This section is designed to allow schools and other institutions to maintain their religious ethos. As Senator Norris rightly stated, there should be no attack on the ethos in the case of a good teacher. A good teacher is a good teacher, irrespective of his or her sexual orientation or faith.

The legislation was examined by the Supreme Court in 1996 when the Employment Equality Bill 1996 was referred to it under Article 26 of the Constitution. The Supreme Court found that it is a reasonable balancing in legislation of the different rights involved, including, chiefly, the right to earn a living and the rights to freedom of religion and association. However, as we have stated on a number of occasions, we are concerned that this is not the way it has worked out in reality. There is evidence that the balance, in practice, is not a fair one and that this provision can operate in a way that is unfair to LGBT persons.

As much as the case of Eileen Flynn, who, unfortunately, is no longer with us, sticks in our minds, it was not the only one. It was not just as a matter of Ms Flynn being pregnant and unmarried. We need to bear in mind that there were a lot of people in that category.

The two Ministers involved, Deputies Shatter and Quinn, are committed to finding a different solution which resolves this difficulty while still providing for an appropriate balance of competing fundamental rights that is constitutionally sound. We are proposing not only to welcome the spirit of this Bill, but also to take it on as a Government Bill and subject it to the rigorous scrutiny by the State's legal advisers necessary to ensure beyond all reasonable doubt that the text will pass constitutional muster. At the heart of the issues addressed in the Bill are competing constitutional rights and questions about the constitutional obligation of the State to protect the personal rights of all citizens, while also respecting freedom of religion. We are principally bearing in mind teachers and medical professionals employed in schools and hospitals which are funded largely by the State. These are people in positions of trust, charged with caring for children and the sick, and their callings are deserving of respect in society. I believe the Bill is a good one, but I am not a constitutional lawyer and have never claimed to be.

The test the Oireachtas faces when it legislates in this area is whether it has preserved a proper balance between the rights of religious denominations to manage their own affairs and maintain institutions for religious and charitable purposes and the rights of other citizens to equality before the law and to earn their living.

We must move very carefully because failed reform could do real damage to people's lives and set us back. In response to Senator Power's query, the Minister for Justice and Equality indicated last May that he wants the new Irish human rights and equality commission to examine this issue and mount a public consultation process. My experience tells me the value of a public consultation process on this issue cannot be overestimated. The members of the new commission and equality authority will be appointed very shortly.

It is important to engage the public and develop a more complete awareness of the matters at stake, the impact on individuals, their families and communities and in building wider support for this reform. The Irish are inherently decent. There is momentum behind this reform initiative but we need to ensure it involves the wider public and that there is awareness of some of the detail of what we want to do. As Senators know, the Minister set out in some detail in this House last May how reform might be undertaken in this area. He also gave a commitment to have an extensive consultative process and formal assessment of the options. Equality legislation expressly provides for reviews of this nature. It is appropriate that the review be carried out under the aegis of the new Irish human rights and equality commission. Unfortunately, establishing the commission is a complex task which is taking longer than originally hoped. As Senators will be aware, an independent selection process in regard to the membership of the new commission is under way. The Minister hopes to be in a position to make a further announcement in relation to the appointment of the new commission soon. He intends as a priority, on the appointment of members to the two existing bodies, to invite the appointed members to carry out a consultation and report on their views and recommendations to him and the Minister for Education and Skills ? the two Ministers centrally concerned ? and the Oireachtas. Such a process can be carried out within a short number of months, acknowledging the need for rapid movement on this issue. We are all very conscious of delays.

In parallel, the Bill will be scrutinised carefully by the Attorney General's office. We must ensure that our legislation will withstand any challenge. I stress our commitment ? once this necessary consultation process is completed ? to take forward this Bill, with any amendments that might be needed, with Government support to enactment. The Bill addresses very significant problems, in particular for LGBT teachers but also for medical professionals. Failed reform is in no one's interest and we need to be confident that we have got it right and that the wider community knows that we have got it right. I thank everyone for their contributions.

I am a great believer in timing. Timing is everything in life and obviously mine was very much off when I tried to do as outlined 17 years ago.