David Cullinane (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for her response and also the Government Senators who spoke. I found myself agreeing with almost all of what Senator Bradford said in his thoughtful contribution. The approach that is being taken - and Senator Bradford's contribution is a manifestation of it, in some respects - is a little bit too cautious. I want to restate the position because we need to reduce reoffending. I think we would all accept that, but this measure is only one part of it. There is much we must do within the prison system itself. There are many sitting and former prison governors who have progressive views on what should happen. They would also see this as just part of the process, albeit an important one.

I cited the example of an individual who was involved in community work. He was a community leader who graduated from college and runs a skills course for young offenders. That was the individual I cited in terms of that contribution. It demonstrates the issues which exist there. Striking a balance is very important. If we are too conservative we will end up fixing the problem for the person who stole a bag of chips or the young person who threw a football across a roundabout, but it does not fix many of the other problems concerning Senator Bradford's central point. Those individuals were not in prison and will not be reoffending. I want to encourage those people back into employment.

I would like to put on the record some figures that demonstrate that having a conviction - even if it is an old one - does have an impact. Studies have indicated that 48% of employers would not take on somebody with a criminal record. The Small Firms' Association has indicated that between 76% and 87% of firms would not employ an ex-offender. During a contribution on Second Stage, Senator Quinn - who has experience as an employer - also raised that concern.

I appreciate the point made by Senator Bradford and the Government that this is a new departure. Like any new departure, I agree with being cautious when we consider doing something new and different. However, we may be just a little bit too cautious. We can revisit this matter again but I think we are being overly cautious. We will miss the point as regards the purpose of this Bill concerning people who have custodial sentences. It will cover people up to a certain point in terms of 12-month convictions, but it will not cover people who might have a number of small offences and the combined total may be over 12 months. Where does that leave them? They may have committed a number of minor offences when they were in a particular phase of their lives when they were young. They may have exceeded the 12 months but they are in a different place now. That is the argument that has been made by the Irish Penal Reform Trust.

In fairness, the current Minister for Justice and Equality has shown himself to be a liberal Minister who listens and engages with this House constructively on many Bills. The Personal Insolvency Bill was the latest example where Seanad amendments were accepted.