Paul Bradford (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the evolving debate but much of what has been raised by previous speakers is more substantive than the amendments. We are putting in place a new concept. Like all legislation one does not necessarily get it right the first time around. The proposal of a spent conviction facility is a new departure and will make a genuine difference to many people. Senator Healy Eames mentioned one case. At Christmas I had a query from a young gentleman who was convicted for stealing a bag of chips. The conviction caused him problems when it came to gaining employment. I hope that the matter can be resolved.

I will take my counsel from the Minister of State once she replies, as we have to do politically on this side of the House. At a minimum we should say to our colleagues who tabled the amendments and other interested parties that the legislation, both here and in the other House, is not a tablet of stone but is open to review. If in 18 months, two years or three years the legislation is found to be good but not as good as it could or might be, we could reflect further on the timeframes.

To go from no spent conviction to a four year proposal is a jump too far here in this cautious place of legislative progress. However, it is difficult to dismiss what Senator van Turnhout has said about the two year period. I shall wear my Government side of the House cap again and say that I will listen to the Minister of State but we must we willing to progress the matter further. It was interesting to hear the comments made by my colleagues on Finland. They are lucky to have travelled there.

We need to debate law and order and prison policy but we only do that when there is a crisis after a major crime outrage. I am not talking about the recent tragedy where a garda was murdered. Following an increase in robberies we usually have a debate on crime and the resultant analysis is to throw away the key. On other occasions we reflect on the Finnish or other systems. Such a rolling debate needs to take place in a calmer environment. The statistics show that there is a high rate of re-offending in Ireland which is proof that the prison system needs to be amended. Today we are dealing with the singular issue of a spent conviction. I hope that the Minister of State will respond generously to the amendment, particularly to the cautious amendment tabled by Senator van Turnhout. I am not saying that Senator Cullinane's amendment is wild but we cannot go from zero to four years in one move. That is not how it happens here.