Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senator for his amendment as it has opened up this debate. The fiscal council is entirely independent of the Government. Professor McHale and his colleagues are doing a very constructive job in speaking out and giving their assessment as to where we stand in terms of the current fiscal imbalance, referred to in the Senator's amendment.

I agree with the Senator that the objective of this exercise is to prevent group think from happening again. Group think is the predominant culture upon which the economy crashed. This was highlighted in a number of reports on the financial crisis. We are entirely satisfied that the fiscal council has the independence and the ability to manoeuvre and speak out on all of these issues. Its task is primarily to highlight questions of fiscal imbalances. The reason fiscal imbalances occur is because expenditure gets out of kilter or tax revenues from one year to the next do not meet their target. With regard to why this has happened, it is logical the fiscal council would comment on the reasons or point out that under a particular subhead, we have not obtained what we wanted or another area of expenditure is way out of kilter.

The considered view of the Minister for Finance is that the council's independence and ability to speak out and assess the situation is unlimited in terms of what it must say. One of the objectives in any process of legislation is for colleagues to talk around the sections. This process gives an interpretation of itself, ultimately to be challenged in the courts. Woe betide any Government that would attempt to muzzle the fiscal council. Is it genuinely being suggested that if the fiscal council takes a position on an item of expenditure or takes a stern view against a Minister or expenditure items in an area, a Government will attempt to muzzle that council?

I do not think that would happen by virtue of the fact that a stand-alone body is being established under this legislation, as the Senator has indicated. The first thing we would like to say is that we do not think this is going to happen.

One receives wonderfully detailed notes on every amendment. When I was reading the note on Senator Barrett's amendment, I turned to my colleagues and said I did not understand the note. My colleagues said they did not understand the amendment. There is some déjà vuin this regard.

I assure anyone who is concerned that the work and functions of the council will be limited in some way that that is not the intention of the Government. No limit will be put on whatever it wants to talk about. I will give an example. I do not want Senator Reilly to think I am being overtly political. I understand that Sinn Féin produced a pre-budget submission today. We encourage all parties to do that. We thank Sinn Féin for its input. Why should the fiscal council not be allowed to express its views on the pre-budget submissions of Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil or individual Members of the Oireachtas like Senator Barrett?