Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Senator Power has mentioned this is only the start and she is right. Wording in the Constitution will probably not change the position of children substantially. What we do on the ground and attitudinal changes will make the most significant difference. Senator Power also referred to the all-party committee. I commend the Minister for changing the wording proposed by the committee. She has improved the situation with the new wording.

The one area that struck me when I read the published wording was the next clause, also referred to here, namely, that we had moved from the physical or moral reasons, so to speak, to more general duties. That struck me as an area that might be tilting the balance one way or the other and I put that question to the Minister. The debate is very good. I have no difficulty with the implementation of what Senator van Turnhout describes as the modus operandi but we must look at the wording in question. In going back over what has happened up to now, Senator Bacik was not particularly pertinent in that we are now putting new wording into the Constitution which will be interpreted, as the Minister stated, by our Judiciary and this may change the manner in which these cases are considered.

I wish to tease something out with the Minister. I am not sure whether the phrase "and significantly" tilts this issue back the other way too much. As it is really a legal question, I must defer to legal minds on it.

The debate has reawakened some small concerns I had with regard to the wording, for example, parents "failing in their duty towards their children". This phrase is qualified by "the safety and welfare of any of their children". Growing up as a young garsún in the 1950s in the house where my father had died, I remember being acutely aware that children in those circumstances were, to some extent, exposed to the possible intervention of what was then called "the cruelty man". Many people who grew up in that era will be familiar with that term. Much would have related to the inability of families to provide for their children in the way they would have liked because they did not have the financial resources. It was common in those days for people to borrow sugar, butter or whatever else before the end of the week. Those memories stay with one and I would hate to think that in the current climate where people are seriously financially challenged, this could in any way be interpreted as an issue on which the State might interfere when families may be going through difficult financial situations.

I would certainly be concerned if this could in any way be interpreted as an area in respect of which the State could interfere in circumstances where families might be experiencing financial difficulties. This is, therefore, a matter which could be teased out further.

There is a second and more general aspect relating to this issue. I refer to the provision of social services and to specific individuals who might be wedded to particular ideologies which might not be pro-family in nature. I could recount one or two instances where matters of this nature would have emerged as reasons specific actions followed certain interventions. I am concerned about this issue in general. What precautions will be put in place in respect of the type of eventuality to which I refer? Many people have spoken about the primacy of the family, about the right of a child to have both a father and a mother and about trying to keep that unit together in so far as is possible. I accept that in exceptional circumstances, and where all else fails, the best interests of the child must absolutely come into play. Nobody wants obstacles to be introduced which will prevent intervention in such circumstances. As a previous speaker indicated, however, we do not want to see busybodies becoming involved and making interventions which no reasonable person would make.

There is a particularly fine balance to be struck in respect of this matter. I have not been completely persuaded by Senator Mullen. Perhaps he might seek to provide such persuasion when he makes his next contribution. I am concerned, however, that, in the context of the wording, the threshold may have been dropped just a little.