Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)

I thank the Senator for his very interesting remarks. The title of the motion was the need for the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform to clarify the role of civil servants and their interaction with Ministers and the Government. It is a big title. I have a very interesting script from the Department but I will not use it.

The issue we face is one of political accountability because ultimately we must have a system based on parliamentary democracy whereby people elected to jobs have the task of responding to both Houses on performance on these tasks. Where policy is enunciated by the Government one would have thought this policy is then implemented by those public servants whose responsibility is to put it into effect.

Senator Kelly cited four examples, which were very frustrating for him I suspect, where progress or action he wanted to see was being frustrated by a number of individuals. I have not heard their side of the story or the rationale for their view so it is difficult for me to comment. The Civil Service is entirely professional and independent and it gives its advice to the Government in a way that takes into account all competing policy interests. I understand the Senator's frustration, and one could argue his speech was like the last chapter in the book at the end of a very long political career, but on the contrary he is a new Senator who I suspect may be in the other House at some point. It is very important that he takes up these issues with the Minister of the day who has responsibility in these areas, whether agriculture, social protection or health, to see whether progress can be made. It should not be the case that civil servants stand in the way once a decision has been made and it is in the interest of the system.

Once that decision is made and once it is in the interest of the system we expect.

The great advantage of the public sector we have is that it can weigh up problems. However, ultimately it is a political call as to what the outcome has to be. In other systems, when one comes into government one can bring all the administration in with one. Those in senior positions from the previous administration leave. That may well be a view that the Senator is espousing and thinks is relevant and there may be merit in it. There is a necessity to have some bridge between the public service and the political system in terms of making sure that what Ministers want to happen actually occurs. That is crucial.

From the script given to me by the Department which I will forward to the Senator for a fascinating read, we are looking at all these issues. We are clarifying the role of the public sector in terms of advice, freedom of information, and what it is and is not accountable for. One of the key parts of the programme for Government is that where civil servants believe that a policy position such as decentralisation was contrary to a range of other objectives, they could speak publically about it and have their views recorded on the record. Perhaps that would be a more useful way of engaging in this.

I appreciate the Senator's frustration but untimately the answer is this is a political responsibility for that Minister of group of Ministers to make sure they believe in him and what he is attempting to do. That is the only way progress can be made.