Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and the legislation before us. We supported the Government's position on the treaty and the establishment of the ESM, which will certainly give us options other than entering the bond markets again as a guinea pig to satisfy the egos of the people in the NTMA or Europe. If money is available at 3% interest, I would prefer that to funding at 7% interest.

I apologise for not being present for the entire debate but I was listening to it on the monitor. I have an issue with our negotiating position, and the Minister of State mentioned that if anybody else gets a better deal, we will look for the same one. This is a wait and see approach of noting whether other parties get concessions or more favourable terms. We should be pioneering in this regard, trying to design our own deal. There is no question that the bank debt will be added to. We are a number of years down the line from where Spain is now, Italy is probably next and then Portugal after that in a larger way. There are banks in France and possibly even in Germany that are at risk. Going back to Senator Walsh's point, €500 billion will probably not be enough. The Irish position should be to build alliances to secure a pan-European bank debt pooling resolution organisation to take the debt off the heads of people in the programme countries. We all hope something comes out of the summit later this week.

Some people might laugh at the concept of debt write down. I am not an economist but we managed as one of the wealthy nations of the world, as we thought, to cooperate with people from the world of celebrity in lobbying for the write down of debt in developing countries. It was done and that was appropriate. We will kick the can down the road with band aids such as the ESM, which is needed, until we get an overall solution to this crisis. For political reasons in certain countries, we are some distance away from that. The Irish Government should lead on the position of trying to develop a situation that is better for us and that will ultimately put the people front and centre. We have all said that the banks still seem to be problem, and the bondholders are foremost in everyone's minds. Everyone wants the people to be put first and in that context the solution must look at sovereign debt write down.

There might be economic implications if that is done in a particular way but if it can be done with agreement on a pan-European basis, it could take ten years from a crisis that could be 20 or 25 years long. That should be done.

I have no doubt the Minister of State will check the record to ensure he heard everything I said. Rather than waiting, however, to see if Spain gets a better deal, or if Italy does better, or to see the circumstances in Greece, we should be leading the way, saying we have done all we can in terms of austerity and to facilitate the European process. We want a situation that will be better for the people. Nothing that is currently being proposed will make much difference to the people on the street. We can then get into the issue of the mortgage and debt crisis here as opposed to the country's debt in European terms.

It is almost a year now since the Family Home Bill but we still have nothing concrete from the banks. Senator Barrett's backstairs to the Department of Finance for the bankers seems to be alive and well. Solutions that are coming to the surface are bank-driven. Parts of loans will be shelved for a number of years. I would support that but the banks are going to charge interest on the loan. That is ridiculous. Do we want to help people or is this another way of creating a complexion that the banks are doing something to help when all they are doing is helping themselves while giving a false impression that they are trying to help people?

At European level we must lead, not wait, on what can be done in the context of adjusting the deal open to us, come up with a new deal, look at pooling the bank debt, at sovereign debt write down and at the growth programme. On a national basis, the Minister should take the initiative back from the banks and take control of the situation of mortgage arrears and the debt crisis, and put in a place a programme where people could shelve part of their mortgage for a period without being charged for it. What is the point of that?