Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)

I have known the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, for as long as anyone in this House and he certainly is as well briefed as any other Minister.

It is a disgrace that we are stifling debate and democracy, giving a Harvey Smith to democracy and downright manipulating a process that will ensure Seanad abolition. Shame on Fine Gael in particular, and also on the Labour Party for allowing this to happen.

There are 1 million things that could be suggested, debated and considered by a constitutional convention. The last people anybody needs to hear talking about it are Senators. I have never known a Senator, Independent or otherwise, who is not an avid enthusiast and proposer of radical Seanad reform. That has never been the problem. The problem is clear for everybody to see today. It is the empty Fine Gael and Labour Party benches. How dare those Senators call themselves democratic, and representatives of the people? Shame on them. Think of Ceausescu, Stalin and that kind of Communist oppression because that is what they are holding up and standing for today.