Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)

I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to include Seanad reform in the Constitutional Convention.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, to the House and I welcome this debate. The motion is a clear, succinct and unequivocal request. As we were aware before the last election, both Fine Gael and Labour called in their election manifestos for the abolition of the Seanad and their suggestion was that this would be done within 100 days, which obviously has not happened. In this instance, we must make it very clear that all parties, including my own party, Fianna Fáil, have the position that there is a need for Seanad reform.

The questions one should pose are as follows. Does Ireland need an Upper House? In my view, it does. Does the current cost of the Seanad justify its retention? I believe it does. Despite rumours to the contrary, the overall cost of running the Seanad according to information from the Oireachtas Library and Research Service is approximately €9 million per annum, which could be improved on. What should Seanad Éireann do and how should it be elected? All of these issues have to be considered.

With regard to whether Ireland needs an Upper House, Bunreacht na hÉireann was introduced in 1937 and the Seanad has served this country very well since then. Irish democracy is built on the organs of State and the separation of powers. We have the Judiciary and the Executive and there is a need for the operation of the Houses of the Oireachtas - the Dáil and the Seanad - to be examined. If reform of any of those bodies is needed, the most obvious and first port of call should be the Dáil itself. The Dáil is cumbersome and has a committee system that, while it was intended to be of benefit to democracy, is in fact unworkable at present because the committees are very large and unwieldy, despite recent changes.

The other point that should be put on record is that the Legislature is currently under the control of a Government with a very large Dáil majority which is unprecedented in the history of the State. There is a widespread recognition that in order to improve our democracy we need to have a stronger Legislature that can hold Government to account. At present in Ireland, the Legislature does not hold Government to account. In fact, on recent issues, were it not for the Seanad, the majority is so large in the other House it would be almost undemocratic.

Seanad Éireann slows down Governments. Irish Governments, particularly those supported by large Dáil majorities, can effectively steer through whatever measure they wish. In the current situation, without the Seanad, the huge majority of the Government parties in the Dáil could bulldoze through whatever legislation they require.

Irish politics is dominated by parochial issues. It is ludicrous that Deputies should be sent from all parts of Ireland to represent their constituencies by having a focus on local, parish pump politics, which is an ongoing, festering issue. Recently, a particular issue in a west Cork town was being dealt with by every member of the town council and every county councillor and Oireachtas representative in the electoral area, amounting to 23 people. It is wrong, be it in relation to planning or other issues, that every engineer, architect and public servant is being engaged with in a plethora of correspondence from Deputies, councillors and so on. The proposal to reduce Dáil representation from 166 to 158 seats is only tethering around the edges of the problem. It will not resolve it.

With regard to the operational cost of the Seanad the Taoiseach may have given the impression, not deliberately but mischievously, that the operational cost of the Seanad is approximately €18 million or €19 million per annum. As I have already stated, the correct figure is closer to €9 million. Fianna Fáil believes that the number of Senators should be reduced by at least ten and that Senators should be paid an annual salary of, say, €50,000. A reduction in the number of Senators and their salaries would result in an approximately €2.5 million saving to the Exchequer. Also, Senators should be required to vouch for expenses, an issue which we have looked at but in respect of which we have never grasped the nettle, and should devote themselves fully to their job as Senators. I believe that the Seanad should sit normal working hours Monday to Friday rather than on a part-time basis, which allows Members to hold other jobs.

Another important matter is what Seanad Éireann should discuss. In my view, we are now dominated by Europe. Current issues of concern include the influence of Germany in our economy, the problem with the eurozone and the financial difficulties being experienced by Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. As I understand it almost 70% of all legislation currently passed by the Oireachtas is initiated in Europe, either by way of directive or indirectly. There is not enough scrutiny of European legislation. A reformed Seanad could take up the mantle of scrutinising European directives. Currently this work is done by various committees. I was once told by a senior clerk in the Oireachtas that this is done on a need to know basis. In other words, if, say, the Joint Committee on the Environment, Transport, Culture and the Gaeltacht is required to scrutinise particular measures from Europe these are simply landed in front of it. There is no cohesion between the various Departments in regard to what is coming down the track, which is totally unacceptable.

I also believe that a reformed Seanad should play a greater role in the development of cross-Border relations. It should be inclusive of representation from Northern Ireland. We all live on the one island and it should be written in stone that both communities in Northern Ireland be represented in a new Seanad. I hope that during my lifetime we will aspire to a united Ireland. There should be more integration on issues across our communities including, health, fishing, farming, the environment and so on. Also, Seanad Éireann should be given the specific power to assess, on a regular basis, the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement by this jurisdiction. Time limits should be imposed on speakers, the reading of speeches should be prohibited and time should be allocated to debate issues currently affecting citizens, as is currently the case in the Dáil.

Seanad Éireann should be given the specific job of assessing our obligations under the many international treaties to which we have signed up and this should be done on a rotating basis to ensure we know what we are doing. I believe the public consultation process initiated by the Leader, Senator Cummins, should be further developed so that the citizens of this country, particular groups, minority groups of citizens and so on would have the right to bring acute issues affecting their lives before this House. In my view, Seanad Éireann should be in a position to vet all major State appointments by the Government and there should be a requirement that any recommendation by the Seanad on any such appointment must be taken into consideration by the Government. An issue arose recently in regard to the propriety of a senior appointee to the European Union. I believe that a cross-party committee of the Seanad could fulfil such a role.

Fianna Fáil recommends that at the very minimum the current constitutional convention should review the Seanad. It is abominable that that convention is proceeding without taking cognisance of the role of Seanad Éireann, which is an important plank in our Legislature. Former Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton, for whom I have enormous respect, established the committee on the Constitution in 1997 chaired by former Deputy Jim O'Keeffe from west Cork. That committee considered many issues and was subsequently chaired by the late Deputy Brian Lenihan. I later chaired the committee from 2002 to 2007. The committee dealt with many issues and produced 11 reports, some of which have never been acted upon. It would be more appropriate that the Government act on already completed constitutional reform work rather than on the knee-jerk political proposal to abolish the Seanad, which is a ludicrous proposal. As stated in the motion, the constitutional convention should deal with the issue first and foremost.