Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)

I commend Senator Mullen on bringing this Bill before us. It is informative, thought provoking and an education for me when preparing to speak today, having listened to the Senator's contribution and that of the Minister. When I first read the explanatory memorandum of the Bill, I wondered whether it was necessary to introduce legislation to deal with such an issue and whether provisions were already in place. I have no doubt overpayments occur, some of which are in error. For those that are not returned - the subject of today's discussion - perhaps in some cases the recipients are not aware there has been an overpayment. There could be an error on both sides. Where does this Bill stand from that point of view? Many payments are made now through electronic means. Senator Mullen himself mentioned double invoicing and the fact the recipient of the moneys may not realise it at the time. Errors can occur in many ways.

I did a search and found a report about an individual who had overpaid when paying by electronic means. Instead of paying €14.95, he omitted the decimal point and paid €1,495. It took about six months of dealing with bureaucracy to get that money back. I have no doubt overpayments occur, but I would still question whether we need to deal with it through legislation. As the Minister said, there may be other means through accountancy standards or whatever. I know in some instances we may be dealing with a large organisation versus a sole trader, but sole traders must also have bookkeepers in place and prepare end of year accounts.

The figure of €25 was mentioned as a minimum in section 2 and that seems to be a very small amount. There is also a provision whereby the money must be returned within 21 days. A situation may arise where neither party is aware of the overpayment. I am sure Senator Mullen will respond to that. It may be only for those who are aware of the overpayment. However, 21 days seems like a short time, especially when dealing with many transactions. I do not see the demand for such a provision. I am a member of the jobs and enterprise committee and we see many business representative groups coming through, such as IBEC, the Small Firms Association and ISME. The Minister of State, Deputy Perry, has been in the House regularly talking about his small business forum. The issue of overpayment has not arisen in any of these meetings. I have no doubt it occurs, but it certainly is not a burning issue for these organisations. We could ask the opinion of the representatives of these organisations on whether they believe such an issue is important to them. If there is an overpayment, can it be resolved by means other than legislation? I do not wish to trivialise the overpayments issue. I am sure there are overpayments, but I do not know at what level they occur. Senator Mullen quoted examples from the US, but do they apply here? I am not sure.

I am also concerned about sections 3 and 4, whereby a person may request the Minister to investigate. The Minister is a very busy person, not that he would be doing it personally. It seems to be an onerous obligation to be placed on the Minister and on the system as a whole. The appointment of authorised officers to investigate complaints will be a cost to the Exchequer.

The Bill has been compared also to dormant accounts legislation. In his own contribution, the Minister stated that when the dormant accounts legislation was brought forward, there was knowledge it was needed. The returns from the dormant accounts fund of €630 million show there was an issue that needed to be addressed.

Do we need to introduce legislation to deal with this issue? I do not see the need for it. I am concerned at the level of red tape that would be introduced, because that is the major issue for any small business. There is already quite a level of legislative requirements with which businesses need to deal, and we certainly do not want to add to their burden. We want to free them up to ensure they can focus on the areas that are important in order to preserve the jobs they have and develop further jobs. I know I am repeating myself, but I would question the need for legislation at this stage.