Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I thank the Senators for their thoughtful contributions. In response to Senator Jim Walsh, I am also concerned that we do not over-emphasise this aspect of the issue. We know there has been a series of horrendous incidents of abuse perpetrated by members of the church which have resulted in prosecutions, convictions and the publication of many reports. To return to a point made during the Second Stage debate, we also know that children are far more likely to be abused in families by people they know and to a greater extent, the incidence of abuse is not as a result of anything to do with religious faiths, the Catholic Church or any other faith. It is important to keep this in context.

I also think the sacerdotal privilege issue is terribly interesting from a media perspective but is tangential to any of the issues we are dealing with. I will return to my previous point on all the reports, including the Murphy report into the Archdiocese of Dublin and the Diocese of Cloyne, or Mr. Justice Ryan's report on the work of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. None of the investigations arose from abuse that was disclosed to a priest in confession that was kept secret. It was all about abuse in all sorts of other circumstances that was not reported or abusers being in a position to continue abusing children and having multiple victims. Abuse of the sacerdotal privilege is a terribly interesting theoretical issue that excites some people outside this House but is not central to the legislation. It is a side issue. The essential issue is to ensure that the legislation we are enacting makes it a criminal offence to conceal information regarding a serious offence committed against a child or vulnerable adult, including a sexual abuse offence. That applies right across the board to everybody.

Among the issues raised by Senator Jim Walsh was where a child is persuaded to say that he or she does not want to tell the Garda Síochána. Of course, a child may be persuaded to say that now. However, in the past the same child may equally be persuaded not to tell gardaí. It may never occur to the child that the matter should be reported to the Garda Síochána. We live in an imperfect world and one cannot solve every possible problem that arises. We may have a case at some point in time where a person being prosecuted under this legislation makes a case for not reporting child abuse because the child did not want it reported. However, the child may state that is not true and a court will have to decide who is telling the truth. The woman cohabiting with another man who as a result of the pressure he puts on her does not report abuse has no defence under this Bill. This Bill in defining family members makes it quite clear, that if a child is being abused by a family member, one cannot on behalf of a child determine not to report the matter. A medical practitioner or a psychologist may for some reason temporarily not report the case, but if a cohabitant abuses a child, that does not give the parent an exemption to not report the case or exempt the parent from a possible prosecution.

The purpose of the legislation is to put out a simple and coherent message that one has an obligation to report all instances of abuse. Senator Hayden replied to the sacerdotal privilege and the confessional. The legislation gives no exemption to anybody. In the unlikely event of a paedophile exposing the priest to whom he or she made a confession of abusing a child in the confessional and did not report the matter to the Garda Síochána, I cannot guarantee this will result in a prosecution. This will not happen and this is why it is a theoretical issue in practical terms.

Let us take the case of the serial abuser in Australia who kept on going to confession but continued to abuse a multiplicity of children. At some stage it becomes known that a particular priest had known about what the abuser was doing for a very long time. To respond to the question of whether the priest involved in this case could be prosecuted under this legislation when enacted, the answer is "Yes". Will the priest argue the case and put up a defence? He may well do and the Supreme Court will decide it. It is not central to the legislation. The claim being made that a priest or bishop who is made aware of abuse is generally exempt from giving information to the Garda Síochána under this legislation is entirely wrong.