Jimmy Harte (Labour)

I welcome Senator Daly's Bill because it gives us an idea of how people are thinking about NAMA. It is very confusing for many members of the public, including myself, to grasp how NAMA operates and how we ended up in this position. It was the result of the previous administration. I am not referring to the political Administration but to the developer-led economy in this country. If one studies what happened with the Irish Glass Bottle plant site in Ringsend, it is an example how the entire system ran into itself eventually. It ended up with one State body buying the property from another State body for approximately €412 million. It is worth approximately €40 million now. AIB is owed approximately €300 million and Anglo Irish Bank is also owed money but the bottom line is that the taxpayer will pay for it.

The usual suspects were involved with that site purchase and no consideration was given to the end game. The game in Ireland at that time was that one bought a site, got planning permission changed for it and sold it off to somebody else. The pyramid scheme kept growing until eventually the taxpayer ended up footing the bill. Many developers were genuine property developers who got caught in the flow. Other developers were laundering money, using development for criminal purposes. Those guys are in the same boat as the rest, but we are paying off their debts as well. These people, and we all know who they are, were using it as a money laundering procedure because they could hide under the cloak of a developer. We also know people who became developers. One day they were sitting drinking in a pub and the next day they were driving a mercedes. Many people who have worked in this country for 40 years are lucky to buy a new car. These people are now back on the street, doing what they used to do before that. Other guys who are still driving the mercedes also caused the problem.

Ultimately, we must consider what is in this for the ordinary person on the street. I believe that in ten or 20 years NAMA will be a textbook example in schools and universities of how things went wrong and how we tried to solve them. I met a young couple yesterday who are anxious to change their house. They have had a mortgage for 16 years - I know them longer than that - and they owe perhaps €3,000 on that. They wish to move to another cottage up the road that they like. The wife is working full time and the husband is working part time but because he is working part time they have been told there is no way they will get a mortgage. They are only seeking €70,000, never missed a mortgage payment in 16 years and they have substantial savings of €10,000. They told me the bank told them that unless the husband is working full time for at least a year, it will not even consider them.

As the young gentleman said, they want to buy the cottage and will spend their own money doing it up. When somebody else bought their property, they had to install a new kitchen. However, the entire system has ground to a halt. That is the practical impact of the situation caused by the multimillionaires in this country. Many of them are still millionaires. Until that young couple, and other couples like them, can move to the property they desire, the property market will not move. We have been reading reports recently that property prices are actually too low at present. That is basically because people cannot borrow money.

In Donegal and probably in other parts of the country, houses that are worth €80,000 or €90,000 can be bought €60,000 or €70,000, but people cannot buy them. They are interested in buying the properties but they cannot access the credit which they could have accessed ten years ago. These people are good clients. They are rearing families and maintaining properties, but they do not wish to rent houses all their lives. They want to be in a position to buy the property. They are capable of paying the money back and their track record proves that, but these are the people who are being victimised. It is not the Derek Quinlans, Bernard McNamaras and the like, who were buying property from each other and bumping up the prices. They did not care about the end game.

NAMA has an important role but, for me, it is still a little confusing to assess where it will end up. However, I agree with the Minister that if information is commercially sensitive, we should not give it away. The sooner NAMA can shut its doors, say it has done its job and helped in some small way to bring the country and the property market back to normality, the better. There is a glut of people who wish to buy property but who cannot afford to so do, not through their own fault but through the fault of others.

Finally, I agree with Senator Power's point regarding unfinished estates. Much of the €2 billion that the National Asset Management Agency wishes to spend should be spent on flattening down and cleaning up some estates . While much work is involved in cleaning up an estate, it helps many families who live in areas in which six or eight properties are run-down or in which the block work was left half-complete. Consideration should be given to using the money to finish estates, to clean and flatten down estates and to grow lawns on which kids can play, rather than having parents concerned about torn-down fences and holes full of water. I ask the Minister to use his good offices to push that agenda as well, in respect of how the aforementioned €2 billion will be spent.