Feargal Quinn (Independent)

We learn from what others are doing.

I find it interesting that the fifth review by the IMF states the social welfare system generates poverty traps for some groups and provides less targeted supports for others, an issue that has been much talked about this morning. Potential reform options include moving towards a means-tested and integrated system of social welfare payments. I am not sure, however, that is what we are doing and wonder how much of this message the Minister is taking on board and how she is overcoming the obstacles in the way of a means-tested system.

There was an idea from Senator Noone, which we heard again today, detailing the issuing of a social welfare payment by means of a debit card which would only be usable in Ireland. That would also include setting a fixed amount that can be withdrawn in a given week by using that card. To add to this, I believe some other European countries have a card that can be used to withdraw cash from ATMs and Dutch banks only. Although not completely ideal, this may be a straightforward solution to reducing fraud. They use the system in Holland.

In the United States, food stamps cannot be used to purchase alcohol or tobacco. We pay child benefit in this country, but there is no control over how the money is spent. We are aware that some people, on the day the child benefit is paid, commit abuses of the system. The United States uses the food stamps system to implement control, so should we have more of a say on where social welfare payments are spent? This also links to fighting childhood obesity which is costing the State millions of euro and which cost is rising every year. There is much debate about it.

What is the Minister's view on countries like the Netherlands, where social welfare is calculated on the applicant's average salary in the last tax year and how long the unemployed person has been working? The issue of whether people should have to work after a particular length of time on social welfare should be raised again. Many people say they would prefer to be doing something to help their community rather than just stay at home doing nothing. In some European countries, following receipt of social welfare for 12 months, a person is required by the Government to take up a job. That might be painting a local school or cleaning the floors of a local hospital, and it would be done in exchange for social welfare payments. Many people would prefer to do this rather than be at home doing nothing, but is the issue taboo? Could we have a mature discussion on it, as it is a worthy topic?

In the United Kingdom, the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition Government introduced a work programme based on social welfare reform similar to that introduced by President Clinton in the United States. There is a payment for results and a contract with the private sector. More than 500 businesses and voluntary organisations in Britain have signed up to get people back to work who have claimed unemployment for up to a year. These contractors are only paid when the worker has held down the job for a certain period. Mr. Chris Grayling, MP, is the UK Minister of State at the Department of Work and Pensions, and he has argued that this will transform the lives of millions of people as well as representing good value for the taxpayer because payments to contractors are dependent on results. Much of the money is awarded to providers only when the jobseeker is placed in sustainable employment. Mr. Grayling has indicated a Birmingham programme placed its 1,000th person in a job at the end of last year. That is just one of the steps taken.

In one centre set up in the UK and run by a private contractor, there has been an attempt to replicate workplaces. Local firms can set up a shop in employment centres to test employees, which could be very useful. Trade skills like plumbing and basic contracting skills are taught. In classrooms, the jobseekers - known as clients, which I like - learn how to use the Internet and personal networks to find jobs.

I will touch on another aspect for combating social welfare fraud with an interesting example from the Netherlands. Local authorities have begun using social networking sites such as Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn to hunt social welfare cheats in the first anti-fraud campaign of its kind in the world. We cannot just look at ideas from other countries and adopt them but we can learn from them.