Feargal Quinn (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry. While, like others, I would like to have the ear of the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, I am glad the Minister of State is present.

I welcome the Minister's reforms, in particular the new methods of tackling fraud. There is a need for a frank discussion on the amount of money we are spending on social welfare payments. The Government is borrowing €127 million every month to top up the funding required for social welfare payments. It is estimated that to make these payments €3.32 billion was borrowed in 2010 and 2011 and that a further €1.3 billion will be borrowed this year. There is, therefore, a need for a debate on the seriousness of this issue.

I have looked at what other countries are doing. The Minister of State and I share a background in the retail sector. During a trip to San Paulo in Brazil I visited a beautiful supermarket which was the biggest I had ever seen. When I commented to the owner that I was surprised by the number of men shopping there - it was an up-market supermarket - he told me they were chauffeurs who were shopping for their bosses.