Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

No, not necessarily everybody and I will come to that. The vast majority of people would come into that age group provision by virtue of having a child. It is under 12 years for 2012, under 10 years for 2013 and under seven years for 2014. I believe on the part of some of the groups, although certainly not on the part of OPEN or Barnardos, there may have been a misapprehension that all of this will happen instantly and that is why in regard to child care provision, I believe this country can do this.

The number potentially involved will be 170 people in 2012 and that number will rise to approximately 700 in 2013 and by a couple of thousand in 2014. The numbers affected will rise substantially in 2014 and 2015 because children, or parents, will begin to hit the ages that apply. There is time and space to do this.

One of first things the Government did on taking office was to appoint a Minister specifically for children, which was quite a radical action and decision. It means there is a specific Government Department that has the job of examining this issue and working on the provision of pre and after school care. In the 1960s this country went successfully for the expansion of secondary education. In the 1970s, it went for the expansion of technical education and the development of the institutes of technology on the then advice of the OECD, while in the 1990s the country went for the expansion of university and college education. The first ever early start programme in schools began in 1995 and 1996 in an effort to have structured primary preschools. The country and its administrations have a substantial history of education expansions and initiatives. Also, a decision was made to convert the €1,000 early years payment to a preschool payment and I publicly supported that at the time. I do not know whether everybody in the Labour Party did so but I strongly supported it. As we reflect on what happened during the Celtic tiger years, as a country we probably put too much money into direct cash payments without any condition of parents having to do something in regard to them, whereas other countries put more emphasis on services in particular. It is doubtful how much extra cash someone with a special needs child requires to buy them some of the items their child needs, but what they do need are services as well as income support. There was a rush to do that here, especially in the Celtic tiger years, and it is something on which we must reflect to determine if there are better ways of spending the same amount of money while achieving better outcomes, although I know that kind of reform is difficult to bring about.

The other factor for which I am the Minister responsible is the change in terms of supporting people to get back into education, training and work. In that respect, all the employment support services formally in the remit of FÁS are now in the remit of the Department of Social Protection. The budget for that is nearly €1 billion. We hear figures of €1 billion or a round billion figure to do with the Department of Social Protection, but the total budget is almost €1 billion, and that includes the back to education initiative. There is a great deal of money in the system and if we can use our ingenuity I believe it is possible to make a significant breakthrough in the time span about which we are talking.

We have established Pathways to Work in my Department and one of the critical aspects of it is that a case management approach is to be taken. Clearly, it will be important that lone parents who come out of an exclusive loan parents type structure get the services of Pathways to Work through a case manager in terms of one on one counselling, advice and so on. We have seen how that type of approach can work well in countries, particularly in France, Finland and Austria, in that it respects the dignity of the person while encouraging the person to get engaged. Everyone is concerned that some children are especially affected by poverty or are at risk of poverty. If we want to do something about that, is it simply an issue of more money or an issue of trying to introduce a series of reforms and change of approach that will help people become more financially independent?

In that respect, I asked my staff to get the statistics on a range of countries. Germany, Italy, Sweden and Norway have different systems but ones that are well recognised as caring about children. The work obligation in those countries is when the youngest child reaches the age of three, and their systems would not be regarded in any way as neglectful of their children. In Finland it is when the youngest child reaches the age of four. In the Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand, and many Irish people have been in Australia and New Zealand, the work obligation is when the youngest child reaches the age of five. In Canada it is when the youngest child reaches the age of six. Senator Zappone probably knows more about the detail of that but I have friends in Canada parenting children on their own and I have been quite impressed by their system. It is a tough system but it is also progressive in that it helps people get back to education because there seems to be a strong expectation that people should be encouraged to use their talents.