Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)

Once the Mahon tribunal report was published, it was inevitable the Houses would have an opportunity to debate it. These debates in the Dáil and the Seanad have not been a happy experience for members of Fianna Fáil, especially those of us who were not aware of the decisions being taken or the corrupt practices being engaged in at a high level within the party. That is not to deflect attention or responsibility. The current leader of our party, Deputy Micheál Martin, moved quickly to place clear water between himself and those found guilty of corrupt practices by the tribunal. The steps he took were unanimously approved by the wider Fianna Fáil membership.

There has been a suggestion in some of the contributions to this debate that Fianna Fáil was not proactive and some of the people named in the report jumped before they were pushed, which is one expression that was used. As a member of the ard chomhairle of Fianna Fáil, I can inform the House that if those people had not jumped the decision of the ard chomhairle, consisting of more than 90 members and representing all aspects of the organisation nationwide, would have taken those decisions. The fact that, once the party indicated it would expel them, the people named decided to resign should not, and I hope will not, detract from the very firm conviction of those of us in Fianna Fáil today that if the proposal to expel them had gone before the ard chomhairle, it would have been carried unanimously.

The period under discussion is the early 1990s. Even the tribunal itself conceded a significant amount of legislation has been passed since to ensure the activities investigated and outlined by the tribunal will not be repeated, in so far as it is possible to legislate against corruption. It is interesting to quote the tribunal report in this regard:

Corruption is universally condemned, and for good reasons. It undermines the equality of individuals before the law, produces unfairness in public policies and distorts the allocation of resources ... It ... [also] instills in [the public] the belief that the political system is there to serve vested interests rather than those of the public which it is supposed to serve.

Fianna Fáil accepted the tribunal's recommendations immediately and without equivocation. In making its recommendations it stated:

the Tribunal has taken into consideration the very significant developments which have taken place in these areas since the period which formed the focus of its inquiries ... since 1994 a number of other laws have been adopted ... anti-corruption measures must have a dual purpose. First, to control the abuse of public power for private gain and secondly, to promote public confidence in the fact that public power is being exercised in the public interest ... While traditionally corruption has been viewed as an issue of individual morality, in recent years, advances in understanding both its causes and its consequences mean that it is now also viewed as a problem of systemic failure. In other words, where an individual behaves corruptly, then the problem lies as much with the system which permitted or failed to prevent that behavior as with that individual. Specifically, corruption is most likely to occur where there is a combination of low ethical standards, incentive and opportunity. There will always be individuals tempted to use public power for their own personal profit and the task therefore is to devise a system which substantially reduces both the opportunity and, if possible, the incentives for doing do.

I have said repeatedly both inside and outside the House that it is a fact of life that corruption, irrespective of the laws passed to address it, is very much a human failing. On a purely practical basis, wherever corruption has proved to be endemic in a political system, it invariably arises as a result of power being held by those who are corrupted. At its simplest, I have always subscribed to the view that money follows power. Irrespective of what one might think of Fianna Fáil, the public voted for it, which is what democracy is about. The fact that there were successive Fianna Fáil Administrations for such a long period of time created what the tribunal refers to as the environment that permitted those who were so inclined to be corrupt. I hold no brief for those found to be corrupt or named by the tribunal. While in no way trying to deflect or minimise the veniality of those who led Fianna Fáil during that period, those involved in development who were bribing politicians and making corrupt payments to politicians did so across the political spectrum wherever they believed they could get a return for money. While there is no problem with lobbying, it was enhanced by the payment of money and it was human failure on the part of those involved or who thought they would get away with it because of the environment in which they were operating that nothing would ever be asked.

I have in my hand a document which runs to nine pages from one of the development companies named in the report - it is involved in a significant number of modules. Every political party received money. Not only was it paid to individual councillors and Deputies of all parties, but all political parties as entities were offered and accepted money. I only make this point to emphasise that corruption was widespread at the time and those who were offering the money were the most corrupt of all because they knew they were playing on human frailty. They knew that if they paid enough money, the chances were that they would get what they wanted and, in many cases, they did to the detriment of-----