David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)

When the hectoring is finished, I am talking about arrangements between private banks that still operate in some parts of Europe. Even though taxpayers technically own the banks, they are still seen as private entities and we do not own them. The treaty does not deal with what any of the individuals in the private sector were doing but it deals with what Governments can do. Nothing in the treaty would have prevented the boom or dealt with the problems we have at present. The trade union leaders who are calling for stimulus measures are sensible, even if people disagree with them about the treaty. We have a gap of €15 billion and the latest figures show the general Government deficit is running at 13.1%. We must reduce that over the next few years to reach the 3% Stability and Growth Pact level.

The big issue then is where we go beyond that. We made our position clear. Sometimes people do not want to listen but we accept fiscal responsibility and have put forward a strategy for deficit reduction. We believe we must be prudent in spending, a point I made earlier this morning. In Greece there was reckless borrowing, which must be addressed, but that was not the case in Ireland where we had surpluses. We are borrowing now because the bottom fell out of the public finances when the property and construction bubble collapsed. That is why we were left with the gap we must now fill. The treaty does not deal with any of that.

It also does not deal with debt. Even the IMF accepts our debt is not sustainable and that at some point we must default. The treaty introduces a debt brake that forces us to get to the 60% debt to GDP ratio; we will get to 120% in 2015 and then we have to bring it back by 5% every year after 2016 to bring it down to 60%.

I will not rehearse all of the proposals Sinn Féin has put forward. Every time we put forward our solutions, the mantra from those in the other parties is not to give them the party manifesto, but they cannot have it every way. If people want me to go through the full list I can do so but I refer the House to the contributions made when the Minister for Finance was here, when I went through the entire list, putting forward costed proposals from the Department of Finance's own figures. I do not always believe the Department of Finance but that is a different day's work.

It is a difficult decision. I am the first to accept that it is hard for all of us; there is no silver bullet or easy way out of the mess we are in. We can all accept that. No party is claiming to have a magic wand that will sort out the problems we have economically. Nor is anyone saying that if we reject the treaty, that is the end of the problems we face. We are saying that if we accept the treaty, it will exacerbate the problem and make it worse. We will see a tightening of spending in the eurozone countries with more austerity causing more problems. It is not that people are not in favour of fiscal responsibility. It is trying to do what we all want in an impossible timeframe and in a way that will exacerbate the problem in our public finances. The examples have been there to see since 2008 but we still have not dealt with the situation.

Those who oppose the treaty are very clear in their opposition in that they are looking for a different fiscal approach to reducing the deficit, and the same holds for the rest of Europe. We should not just force countries to reduce their debt to GDP ratio by making them pay back private debt. There must be an element of debt write-down, which we have not seen. If that was the case people would be more open to fiscal discipline rules.

There must also be a strategy for growth. That is the big issue. There is a difference of €15 billion between what we take in and what we spend and the Government wants a combination of revenue increases and cuts to address that. There is, however, no mention of growth. If we grow the economy and have more income, that negates the need for the painful adjustments. It makes sense, therefore, that trade union leaders who are standing up for working people who have suffered a great deal because of what has happened, want to see a strategy for growth and job creation. One Fine Gael Senator said the trade unions were putting a gun to the heads of the Government. That is not the case, they are standing up for what they believe and for the Irish people and working people. They know better than anyone how the recession is impacting upon people.

We are honest about our views on this, despite some of the commentary from the Labour Party benches. We have put forward solutions and we believe in fiscal responsibility. I can rebut all of the points made by Senator Gilroy but I will not. It is not that long since Senator Gilroy was a member of Fianna Fáil.