Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)

The other sense I got from some of the contributions yesterday was that if we do not vote "Yes" for the treaty, in some way we are bad Europeans in that we are not playing ball with our European counterparts. Does that mean that, for example, the United Kingdom, the Czech Republic, the Danes and the Swedes, who have opted out of certain elements of EU treaties in the past, are not good Europeans? I do not believe that is the case but it is an important point.

Will the Minister also clarify that this is not an EU treaty? There was a sense in the debate yesterday that this is an EU treaty. It is not. It is an intergovernmental treaty outside the EU treaties. That bears reference to the point made by my colleague, Senator Barrett, about the European Stability Mechanism, ESM. The ESM is enshrined in an EU treaty and therefore it is open to question as to whether we would be able to access the ESM post-treaty if we vote "No". That issue is not cut and dried. As the ESM is enshrined in EU treaties, this so-called insurance policy or clause is only noted in the preamble to this treaty, which is an intergovernmental treaty. I am not an economist but I am aware that there are eminent economists and legal people who would question the strength of that so-called insurance clause.

Another comparison made yesterday was that this is only putting in place the type of rules one would have in a good household or business because budgets have to be balanced. That might have made sense in good times but I do not know many families in Ireland at the moment who balance their budgets. They are borrowing today to pay for yesterday's debts and as Senator Sheahan said, a huge number of households are in negative equity and finding it very difficult to survive. They are borrowing to get themselves out of a hole in the hope that in the future they will get out of the difficult situation in which they find themselves.

I have done a B.Comm degree and one of the things we were told was that when a business was in difficulty the wrong approach was to cut back everywhere but rather market, invest and sell to increase one's market, and one would have to borrow to do that. That is a basic principle of business I was taught, although it might have changed in the interim. Our reading of this fiscal compact is that it "straitjackets" future Governments in terms of being able to invest for growth and expand.

We do not see anything about job creation in the treaty. In addition, there is an issue around the holding of the referendum on a Thursday because it does not give a fair chance to people who might want to vote at the weekend, for example, students or younger people on whom this will have a definite impact in terms of being able to vote.

A number of other questions arise. I apologise if my contribution is lengthy but it is important to put all of the sides of the argument. How does the Government envisage this treaty stimulating growth? The economic straitjacket we find ourselves in under the troika deal is not having that effect. Growth is being stymied across Europe. Countries which had triple A status are losing that status. I understand there are now only three countries across the EU with triple A status. The unemployment lines are growing. There has been some positive news on employment, mainly from multinationals, but my argument would be that is not enough to get us out of the situation we are in. Multinational companies can be quite fickle. They will move to wherever is best for their interests and where they will make the most profit. There is no guarantee that they will stay here, as we have seen with Aviva in Galway. The real growth and stability for the economy is built on the small and medium enterprise sector but under the current austerity that sector is finding it very difficult. It is very difficult for those in the sector to get credit and because of the amount of money that must be paid back on promissory notes, etc., and in terms of the banking crisis, the Government does not have the ready cash to support those SMEs in the way that should be done. It is difficult to know how the current troika deal and a new deal which imposes a similar type of financial constraint will stimulate growth not only in Ireland but across Europe. If we cannot stimulate growth and investment in our economy, how will it create jobs? It is not clear to us that this treaty will create jobs.

We welcome the fact that a number of unions have come out in opposition to the treaty, and fair play to them for being willing to do that. SIPTU is straddling the fence on the issue. It has stated that it has serious issues with the treaty but that if the Government gives it a deal on a jobs stimulus package it is willing to call for a "Yes" vote. I might be open to correction but I believe one of the Labour Party Senators said yesterday that there was no question of such a deal being done. The Minister might tell us now if the Government intends to try to buy off SIPTU by promising a jobs stimulus package and then asking it to ask its members for a "Yes" vote. Alternatively, will he tell us that the Government will not try to buy the election on that type of promise? In that way any ordinary member of SIPTU, many of whom contacted me yesterday to say they were uncomfortable with the union's position, will then know that if that promise is not on the table they should vote against it as SIPTU has recommended. It would be clear for them to vote "Yes" or "No". We need to know whether the Government intends to give that type of clarification to SIPTU.

The Taoiseach stated in a state of the nation address that this crisis was not our fault. One of the fundamental problems we have with the treaty is that if it was not our fault, why are we still paying the penalties? That comes back to much of what Senator Barrett outlined. Many other socialists across Europe do not agree with the treaty. We have seen the stance taken by Monsieur Hollande in France. A renegotiation would be needed if the type of change he is talking about has to be brought in and it will change the fundamental nature of that treaty. He has toned down his comments somewhat because he is in the run-up to a general election but if he is elected he will be more robust in that regard. The Dutch Labour Party and the German Social Democratic Party have serious misgivings, and even the European trade unionists have an issue with this treaty. There is a broader body of people who are raising the types of questions we are raising. We live in the real world and it is important that many of these issues would be addressed.

A number of other important issues were raised, including the idea of sovereignty. We have a massive issue with the loss of political sovereignty in this situation because if we sign up to the treaty, as the Minister is aware, we will be open to much more scrutiny from the EU Commission in terms of the rules and regulations for our economic management in a troika style fashion. In many of the contributions yesterday from those on the "Yes" side of the argument we were asked the reason we would be worried about that. I would be worried about it because we are told daily that many of the decisions made by this Government are because the troika told it to make them. If this treaty is passed all we need to do is change the troika for the Commission. We will be told that we must bring in these charges to balance our budgets because the Commission told us to do so. The realpolitik will be that we are handing over the political decisions and what we can and cannot do from an economic perspective to the EU Commission. That is the reason Sinn Féin argues that, under the treaty, Ireland will cede sovereignty from a political perspective. We will also cede legal sovereignty because the European Commission rather than the High Court, the Supreme Court or the Houses of the Oireachtas will exercise control over what we do economically. If the Commission concludes Ireland is not meeting the targets set down in the treaty, it may take us to court and impose a penalty calculated as a percentage of GDP. Moreover, any other member state which believes Ireland is in contravention of the treaty and not playing by the rules will also be able to take us to court. My party has a major difficulty with handing over legal sovereignty to the European Court of Justice.

The penalties laid down defy the purpose of the treaty. As Senator Sean D. Barrett noted, if we are found to be in contravention of the requirement to reduce the government debt ratio by 60% over a number of years, we may be required to introduce annual cuts of up to €6 billion. However, as well as being taken to court for failing to meet this requirement, we may also have penalties imposed on us. As a result, countries that are broke will be required to introduce further cuts to reach the specified targets and will also pay penalties. Not only will they not have money in the bank, but they will also be required to impose further cuts and pay more into the European Stability Fund because they were bold boys in Europe. This does not make sense and will not help countries emerge from difficult economic problems.

I appreciate the leeway the Acting Chairman, Senator Marie Moloney, has shown me. However, it is important to voice the arguments against the treaty and I note some of the Senators opposite are itching to make counter arguments.