David Norris (Independent)

What a novelty. I do not think I have heard that before and I shall certainly write it down in my little book for further reference. Senator Mooney on our side of the House tells us that he is living in the real world. I think I am living in the real world too, but we just take different views on it. The world is either real or it is not real. To say that one is living in the real world does not mean that one can use that phrase to discredit other people's opinions. We just take different views. That is what I call civilised debate.

In regard to the impact of this treaty, we were told that passing this referendum will show that we are a strong and confident country. Like hell we are. I wish we were a strong and confident country. I would love it if the rate of suicide was not continuing to climb because of the economic pressure, not just in this country but throughout Europe. I would love it if the citizens of Europe were not queuing at soup kitchens in the centre of Amsterdam. I would love it if people were not living in cardboard boxes in Syntagma Square. Two weeks ago I was in my local supermarket in Cyprus and when I came out, an elderly man and two young fellows were collecting to buy food for the people in Greece. We are witnessing the slow disintegration of capitalism. Those on the left should be proudly raising the red flag and asking people to look at the real alternatives. This process was initiated in the United States by co-operation between what I regard as international criminal elements, namely, Goldman Sachs, which was paid €600 million for cooking the books for the Greeks to get them into the euro in the first place, and the ratings agencies, about which I have been speaking in this House for at least the past five years. I think we are seeing the beginning of a sort of disintegration and the only way forward is to put humanity and respect for citizens at the core of our policy. I have been making this point for quite some time.

When the banking issue was being debated in this House, I said to the people who are now sharing this side of the House with me and to the late Brian Lenihan, who was making the point that Anglo Irish Bank had to be saved because it was of systemic importance to the Irish economy, that although I was not an economist, my analysis of the language of his speech suggested he was saying the preservation of the system was of more significance than the welfare of the people. That is wrong. The welfare of the people must come before the preservation of the system and let us deal with what happens to the system after the shake-out.

My point is that our primary responsibility is to the people in this country. In total, 50% of young people in Spain are unemployed, but in a region in the north west of Spain, the exact name of which I cannot remember, things are doing quite well because the people have taken control by developing co-operatives and everything is done on a co-operative basis, including banking. It is rather like what our building societies used to be before people, such as Mr. Fingleton, with the active encouragement of some Members in the other House, who now pretend they did not do it, privatised the operation. In that region of Spain, the banks are owned by the people, agricultural and pharmaceutical production as well as the manufacturing of goods such as refrigerators, televisions and so on is done by co-operatives, all of which are in profit. The bank is the seventh largest bank in Spain and it is about the only one that is not in financial trouble. There are other ways of looking at this matter.

We do not have to sign up to a treaty that we all know is a farce, which is confused in its terminology and in respect of which it is not known how to measure or quantify the elements that constitute its significant parts. The difference between structural and fiscal deficits is not known. They have been shown to have been got wrong in the past and we all know it will lead to the bankruptcy of this country. We heard Romano Prodi say yesterday that increasing austerity will lead to revolt. There must be hope. Where is the hope in this? Senator Mary White said on the Order of Business that we need inward investment and be part of Europe and so on. We will still be part of the European Union We are entitled to vote against the treaty. We are lucky to be one of the few to have the opportunity to vote on it. Democracy has been taken away. Let us look at the shameful examples in Greece and Italy.

We have been the good boys and girls in the class. All the way along we have paid everybody else's debts, we have volunteered in a way that goes beyond the wild successes of Christianity, where we were told that if a man attacks you, you give him your coat. We have gone beyond an excess of Christianity in paying other people's debts. There is a cynical side, which is that no good deed goes unpunished. Every time we did it, the reward was a slap.

I am not sorry to see capitalism in trouble. I did not gloat about the death of communism, as most of my colleagues did. It was never tried. Stalin was not a communist. Mao was not a communist. None of them was. There was a noble effort in Nicaragua to try to bring together people with the motives of humanity, society, co-operation and the incentive - the carrot - of the natural human instinct to gain some kind of regard or advantage. That is the direction in which we should go.

I do not believe for one single solitary second that this instrument, which I refuse to call the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union, rather the treaty on instability, will bring about stability. I do not doubt the motives of all my colleagues, but I wish to share this nugget. I was one of a very small number of people who spoke against this treaty on the Order of Business yesterday, but there were members from every single party who came to me privately and said they wished they were able to say the same things, because that is what they believed. I think it is important that we be honest. I do not believe in signing up to a tissue of lies that we know we cannot achieve. The Spanish have done it. They were honest about it. They were honest about their dishonesty. That was great. They signed the treaty in the morning and in the afternoon they said, we will not reach the objectives because they are quite impossible. Is that real politics? Is that honest politics? Is it what we need to get us out of this mess? I do not think so.

I hope my remarks were within the limits of civilised debate. I do not think I said anything that was personally offensive to anybody. If I did I regret it - partly. I said what is in my heart and what I believe is true.

It remains to be seen whether the Irish people will vote for the treaty. It is their decision, as it should have been the decision of every single country in Europe and not just a tiny minority. It should not be left to governments. That is as sensible as what was said on the other side of the House on the Order of Business, when we were told the Cabinet would supervise the installation of the correct kind of water meters because it, rather than professionally qualified water engineers, had the intellect and power to deal with the matter. I wish it would think about something more serious. It should be each to his own particular métier.