Sean Barrett (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State's response. The Bill was not placed before internal consultative bodies. I do not know if such constultation was asked for or if the Department went ahead with the legislation unilaterally. However, it has become a recent tradition, in some Irish universities more than others, that the opinions of those who actually do the work do not count. That is why I ask that the Bill insist on indicating that what a provost or president agrees in his or her personal capacity is irrelevant. He or she, typically, does not give lectures. There should be consultation with bodies which may have different names in different universities. The Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT, should also be consulted. Consulting front-line staff, as they are called in other areas of public life, should be a part of legislation. The culture of managerialism which has been promoted under the 1997 legislation has been to the detriment of education. One might obtain some good views if one consulted people rather than having a narrow closed circle between the HEA, the Department and the heads of Irish universities.

The Irish Universities Association is not an association of Irish universities but of the heads of these universities. It is the Conference of Heads of Irish Universities with a new title. The vast majority who do the work are not consulted. In the amendment I am trying to get for them a right of consultation. Some heads of universities may be more democratic than others. Some have a strong totalitarian tradition and I do not think they will consult unless the legislation requires them to do so. If the Minister of State considers he can use other forms of suasion, I will accede.

The 1997 Act required Trinity College Dublin to remove the seven senior people from the board, people who had talents that would have been recognised on boards anywhere in the world. However, as it did not suit the administrative system to have them there, they were removed by legislation. That makes for dictatorial behaviour. If one is dealing with people who do not like to consult, it may be necessary to enact legislation to compel them to do so, or to oblige them to clarify whether they consulted with themselves or the wider community. The amendment attempts to have the latter method understood.