Rónán Mullen (Independent)

Ba bhreá liom tacú leis an méid atá ráite ag mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Mac Conghail. I wish to be associated with everything he has just said. Is there anything the Seanad can do to contribute to greater clarity on where a referendum fits into our plans for the fiscal compact and our agreement with our European partners? There seems to be an element of confusion about this. Listening this morning to a member of the fiscal advisory council suggesting that it was not desirable to hold a referendum, it quickly became clear that Professor McHale was referring to the idea that a referendum would be a means to entrench whatever agreement might be made and to require that Irish law would follow whatever agreement might be made. He suggested that would not be sufficiently flexible to deal with various eventualities, on which I agree with him.

However, that is a separate question from whether a referendum is needed in order to permit Ireland to make a treaty of the kind that is proposed. We should not be confused on this point. Professor McHale seemed to be suggesting that our European partners might be looking for a degree of certitude about every member state's participation and that each country would be constitutionally required to follow the terms of a particular treaty. While I do not believe I would be very happy with that, whether a referendum would be necessary in order to allow us to participate in such a treaty at all is a separate question. Therefore it would be wrong for anybody to take from this morning's discussion that there was some kind of serious objection to holding a referendum per se. It may very well be that a referendum is needed before the country can even participate in such a treaty.

I note the Taoiseach's reticence about giving a commitment on whether a referendum will be held. It is a matter we could attempt to debate here. The issues are not so unclear as to prevent our making some kind of analysis of whether a referendum is needed.

I wish to mention the cause of guidance counselling in secondary schools. There is considerable concern about how the change will impact on the personal support given to students in our schools. I noted this morning's debate between the Deputy Ó Ríordáin of the Labour Party and a spokesperson for chaplaincy. It is very regrettable that some people seem to be using the very legitimate cause of guidance counselling as some kind of stick with which to beat school chaplaincy, which is wrong. It would be very welcome if the Institute of Guidance Counsellors were to make it clear that it does not want to see its very good cause advanced on the back of some kind of attack on school chaplaincy. One thing that has come from this debate is that the relatively small sum of €9 million being spent on school chaplaincy is entrenched with the deeds of trust of community schools and so on, but there is an inequality in that system in that voluntary schools have not had access to paid chaplains over the years. This is one of a number of inequalities that has been to the disadvantage of voluntary schools over the years. It is difficult to get any progress on such an issue given the current economic circumstances but it is a matter to which we will need to return.