David Norris (Independent)

I hope the matter of the speaking rotation will be examined as it is important to have a degree of balance between the Government side and this side of the House.

I commend my colleagues on introducing this timely and valuable Bill. I have great respect for my humanist friends and colleagues, including the Humanist Association of Ireland. Speaking as a committed and believing Christian, I believe one of the most important principles in religious life is the principle of positive doubt. A great deal of damage is done by people who presume to know the mind of God and inflict their perception on other people. This is particularly dangerous when done in a political context.

Senator Bacik, in introducing the Bill, referred to the very difficult economic times that the entire European system, if not the world system, is passing through and the pressures that each citizen feels. I concur with her that this is not a trivial question as it is one that deals with the happiness and security of individuals and respect for their domestic arrangements. These issues are at the core of our life as a humane society. I do not see any difficulty in considering social matters of this nature during a period of economic crisis and have frequently stated in the House that one of the problems in the financial crisis is that it tends to dislodge and divert attention from any consideration of human rights. In such a climate, human rights issues can easily suffer. It would be a great pity if that were allowed to happen.

I do not have any difficulty with the Minister's designated powers. It is not necessary to refer to the specific organisation on its own. I know people have a wide view and I doubt they would have a restriction placed. I happen to have reasonable confidence in the judgment of Ministers and cannot foresee circumstances arising in which eccentric decisions would be made. The Minister may be able to answer a question. While I note she does not appear to have advisers with her, I am sure the relevant information could be obtained. The Church of Scientology is a church or group about which serious questions concerning whether it is a religious body have been raised in European legal fora. Is this designation, which has been challenged in other European countries, accepted here? Scientology is a body about which many people have reservations, not because of any wish to discriminate on the basis of religious belief but because they believe it is a cult. I presume the Unification Church, commonly known as "the Moonies", is covered by the provisions of the Bill.

With regard to the queries raised by Senator Mooney - undoubtedly with his usual eloquence and in good faith - the power of designation of the Minister does not challenge Parliament in any serious way. For example, should the Minister be required to place such a recommendation before the House, the Government would have the voting strength to vote it through anyway. Therefore, there is no real challenge. If the Minister decides to designate, she is going to designate whether or not it requires a rubber stamp from this House or the other House, because I imagine that is what it would be. That is a rather theoretical approach; it is not a serious difficulty.

I share the Minister's concern, as expressed in her speech, about the lack of criteria by which the Minister would designate a body. That needs to be examined. We also need to look at the criteria by which the person is designated because this is a function that would require dignity and standing. It would be useful to put down some test.

In her speech, Senator Bacik referred to the ten required attributes for accreditation. They are all very worthy, but they are vague. A humanist outlook is not particularly vague and I accept that, but how is compassionate nature assessed? I know people who appear to be compassionate and suddenly they turn out not to be quite as compassionate as I imagined when action is called for.