Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)

I second the motion and welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe. This is one of the most important debates that will take place in this House. The way in which the motion is crafted is an indication of the responsibility shown by this side of the House in this matter. We are seeking not to score points but to bring forward the views of those affected and to reflect the emotion this issue inspires. It is regrettable that we are currently in a limbo on this matter. Moreover, this limbo has been ongoing for an exceptionally long period.

Senator Wilson outlined the main issues regarding the five barracks in question. I recently attended a meeting in Clonmel together with my colleague, Senator Denis Landy, and other Oireachtas Members. The hotel in which the meeting took place was full to capacity, with crowds spilling onto the street. What particularly struck me was the tone of the meeting. It was in no way confrontational and there was no partisanship in terms of whether one was on the side of the Government or against it. Senator Landy will testify to that. I have seldom seen, at a meeting of this kind, such unity among the different political parties. There was also unity among the different sections of the community.

Kickham barracks in Clonmel is named for the great Irish patriot, Charles J. Kickham. The barracks is associated with a long tradition in the town which has always been upheld with pride and loyalty. Members of the Defence Forces could not speak at the meeting, but their partners and members of the community spoke about this pride and loyalty and their grievance that it is not being appreciated. This is a case where no economic argument is being put forward. Moreover, I have some doubt about the pressure that is apparently coming from Europe. I am not too clear where it comes into the picture - perhaps the Minister of State will enlighten us in this regard. Although no economic saving will arise from the closure of the barracks, a costing has been put on the loss to Clonmel, and it amounts to €10 million. In reality the loss will be even greater.

Along with the other speakers I welcome the delegation because it shows the interest, emotion and concern this issue generates.

The members of the Defence Forces have brought huge credit to this country. Any time I travelled abroad I found that Ireland has very few enemies abroad internationally. I am sure the Cathaoirleach found that also. There are a number of reasons for that. First, we never colonised any other country. Second, our religious orders did so much to promote education and health care, which is important. One of the main reasons, however, is the peacekeeping carried out by our Defence Forces which often resulted in loss of life. It was not easy for the members of the Defence Forces to go abroad on peacekeeping missions and leave their families behind but it was a major kudo for Ireland wherever one went.

Regardless of the way we handle this issue, unless it is brought quickly to a positive conclusion the message that will go abroad will be that we did not appreciate what the Defence Forces did. They secure this State but whenever we faced challenges or pressures, whether it was flooding, tragedies or whatever, Clonmel being a specific case, it was always the Defence Forces that came out to help the civilian population. Likewise, they came out to help during strikes by providing transport and so on. The Defence Forces are central to the community and if any of the five barracks is closed - I refer to the one in Clonmel but it affects the others - we will end up with a derelict site because if it is expected that this building, Kickham barracks, will attract an offer similar to one that might have been made during the Celtic tiger period, it will not happen. It will be left derelict and will be a reminder to us of the wrong we did in this particular case. Also, the families of the Defence Forces will be exceptionally disrupted having to move elsewhere, with the cost factor involved in that.

Try as we could at that meeting in Clonmel we could not identify a single saving that will occur as a result of this measure. I hope the Minister, Deputy Shatter, will come to Clonmel because a strong point was put forward by several speakers at the meeting that if the Minister, Deputy Shatter, came to Clonmel, and the other four sites, he might go away with a different view. He will not see it merely as a numerical equation. He will see it in a human, service and tradition context. Any saving to be made, and we cannot see it, will be minuscule but the damage it would do to the morale of the Defence Forces and to the towns which hosted those Defence Forces over the years will not be easily remedied in the future. I agree with Senator Wilson and ask that the Minister for Defence, Deputy Shatter, would visit each of the towns in question and have consultation, just as he would have in other circumstances, with the people involved and put their minds at ease also.

This measure will be a poor reflection on the man after whom the barracks is named and the patriots who gave us our freedom, and likewise for the other towns. We should not tinker with the Defence Forces and we will not be doing a good day's work if we do so. If the Minister, Deputy Shatter, does not come into the House I hope the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, will tell him about the emotion generated over this issue. It is like no other debate that has taken place in this House and we are reflecting that back to the Minister. If no decision has been made let that be known. If a decision has been made, do not implement that decision until such time as there is consultation with all the parties involved. Putting down the motion will have done a great service to everyone involved. It was not to score political points but to do what is right by the State, the Defence Forces and their families, and the towns that have hosted the barracks over the years.