Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)

I welcome the Minister to the House. As a young Senator, it is a privilege for me to be here, although my age deceives. I can be considered ageless on some days. I congratulate the Minister on his actions so far. He has been catching up and cleaning up, which is difficult, and he has done an extraordinary job. I am not an expert on finance at all, but I am somewhat of an expert on debt. We have all become experts on debt as victims of the greed of banking power and the power of banking greed.

NAMA has taken over €71 billion of loans from the top 180 borrowers. That is €71 thousand million. It is better to verbalise it because one could not get enough paper to write down the noughts. However, NAMA paid only €30 billion for these, leaving a shortfall of €40 thousand million, which we as taxpayers in Ireland must pay for. NAMA then went to the ECB, borrowed €31 billion on our account and came back to Treasury Buildings, which is owned by a builder who is himself in NAMA. NAMA terms of reference were outlined by lawyers and accountants whom we are also paying for, and the fees are currently estimated to be around €2 billion to €3 billion. I would like to know if this will be added to the €40 billion that taxpayers are already being asked to pay.

How constrained is the Minister by the laws that NAMA has made up for itself? Has it become a runaway train? What control is being exercised by the Minister on the people within NAMA, and can he as Minister find out what is happening there? Is it time he broke the NAMA code, since the people of Ireland have no say, not even a whisper, in what NAMA is doing with the €31 billion borrowed on our account? It is time for somebody to knock on the door. Can we as citizens have such a write-down on our debt?

My second question is to do with the builders and speculators who we know are broke because they are in NAMA and we are paying for their debts, as well as €31 billion borrowed from the ECB on our account and a €40 billion shortfall that we are also paying for. Can the Minister explain to me how the same builders and developers, and indeed their wives, are building hotels and houses in other countries? Where are they getting the money, when they owe millions to our banks that we are paying for? We see in the papers that they are building houses, knocking down houses, re-erecting houses and spending great amounts of money to buy houses without mortgages. It is like a magic show in Las Vegas. I want to know why they are not on the dole and where they are getting the money. Is there any mechanism for finding out why we are paying for their debts in Ireland while they are living the high life in other countries?

As a taxpayer I, along with other taxpayers, put €3.5 billion into Bank of Ireland; I had no choice. Canadian investors put €1.1 billion into Mr. Boucher's folly. The sums were done and they were outstanding, because the Canadian investors now own one third of the bank for €1.1 billion, while I own 12% for my €3.5 billion. How did that happen? It is fantastic. As taxpayers who paid €3.5 thousand million, can we get involved with these Canadian investors, who have obviously, again, been at some kind of magic show? The most interesting thing is that Mr. Boucher is getting slapped on the back for this. It is extremely questionable. The sad thing about the whole situation is that NAMA seems to be hiding behind phrases such as "the right thing to do" and "the only thing to do", along with the smart suits and sharp pens and the people who look extremely acceptable and very knowing. Yet, what it is really doing is undermining democracy, fair play, justice and our citizens' belief in transparency and honesty. It is continuing to desecrate faith in law, regulation and finance. NAMA seems to be made up by, through and for wide boys.