Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I will start by thanking Senators for their contributions and support for this measure, which is a very important one. I appreciate the support from all sides of the House.

I do not want to be unduly contentious but I want to say to Senator Byrne that I wish my predecessor had done all the work on this Bill. In fairness to him he started some work on it but a substantial amount of work had to be undertaken on this measure. It was given top priority by me. In the Department it was the first Bill that we focused on to complete. A great deal of work was done in my Department and by the current Attorney General. We were still developing the Bill and because of the urgency in addressing the issues, the Bill was published before there was a full opportunity to deal with the whistleblower provisions in it. We were very pleased we were able to bring them forward on Report Stage in the Dáil and incorporate them in the Bill because they are an important aspect, particularly because of the content of section 19.

I want to respond to what has been said by Senators in a general way and I hope they will appreciate that as Minister for Justice and Equality I always have to be careful not to say anything that might prejudice any future court proceedings or any criminal prosecutions that might occur. I share with Senators the outrage at the manner in which some people conducted their financial affairs. Some were obsessed by greed and had no thought for anyone who stood in their path in their avaricious desire to build monumental construction empires. In collusion with grossly negligent and inept bankers, they brought this country to the state it is in, together with very bad political decision-making by the previous Government.

There is something particularly obscene in seeing some of those who engaged in these activities swanning off out of the country and trying to establish themselves abroad and their spouses mysteriously coming into extraordinarily large sums of money that they seem free to invest in property or other ventures without any clear explanation as to what the origins of those moneys were. In so far as there has been any attempt to divert assets out of this country so as to enable people to avoid meeting their debts and to impose them, in turn, on taxpayers who are having to pick up the wreckage that they have left behind, I hope the rigours of the law can be applied to them and that proper action is available to be taken, not only in a criminal but a civil context.

In the context of the disaster that has afflicted the country, this is an issue not just for the Garda Síochána but for NAMA and other bodies to have particular regard to in trying to recoup assets where there is a suggestion they have been dealt with improperly. This legislation will be of assistance to the Garda Síochána. As I mentioned, I attended the conference that Shane Murphy and others spoke at. There was misreporting from it, where one of the speakers was reported as saying we do not need new legislation and that we have lots of legislation dealing with white collar crime. They were referring to the fact that there is a great body of legislation in the area of white-collar crime but what was lacking was a piece of legislation such as this, which assists in the investigation of that crime allowing the Garda Síochána to get access to documentation and records, including electronic records, and requiring those who may have witnessed crimes to co-operate with the Garda in a manner that up to now our laws did not necessarily require.

This Bill is opening the door to ensure that those who will not co-operate with the Garda are required to do so. What is of particular assistance to it, among many provisions in this Bill, is the facility at an early stage in an investigation to apply to a District Court to gain access to information and documentation. A number of Senators welcomed, referred to and queried the 24 hour period for which people can be held for questioning and the fact that it can be broken up to two different occasions. The reasoning and thinking behind this is that it has been the experience of the Garda in investigating white collar crime that one may need to talk to someone on more than one occasion. One may, in one's initial conversation or questioning, be given information that one needs to further consider and perhaps validate. In the context of thereafter accessing information and documentation, one may need to have a further conversation. That is why we have this structure.

One of the issues that I gave consideration to was whether a holding period of 24 hours is adequate - Senator O'Donovan raised that issue - or whether there should be a longer period. We of course have to have a balance in this in the context of protecting individuals' rights and at the same time facilitating the Garda Síochána in the investigation that it is undertaking. If, in the context of white collar crime, experience shows that additional time is required it is a matter I would return to but I hope that will not prove necessary.

The provisions in section 19 are particularly important because they put a very specific onus on those who are aware of individuals engaging in white collar crime to inform the Garda of what they know and to assist it in its investigations. I was interested in hearing what Senator Quinn had to say about that. He is right in one sense. It will impose obligations on accountants and auditors. One of the mysteries to me with regard to banking matters is how it was that accounts of financial institutions were audited in circumstances in which the validity of those accounts were seriously questionable. Towards the end of an accounting year it appears financial arrangements of a temporary nature were engaged in so as to conceal from the end of year accounts the true level of borrowings of individuals or on occasion to create artificial levels of deposits so as to make financial institutions look more secure than perhaps they actually were.

I ask myself what were some of the major auditing firms in this country doing as accountants. What was it they were certifying? What documentation would be examined to facilitate them signing off on these accounts? They were the people who should have been to the forefront of sounding the danger signals when they had access to examining and finalising accounts in the context of major financial institutions that everyone in this State understood to be operating correctly. Why did they think that? They thought it because their accounts were validated on an annualised basis. Serious questions remain to be answered in those areas.

It is important that accountants and auditors acquaint themselves with the provisions of section 19 because it will be relevant to the manner in which they undertake their work. There is nothing unique in that context because currently we have in place - a point which is relevant in another context to which I intend to return tomorrow in this House - certain obligations for those professionals who may be employed on behalf of businesses or banks.

For example, with regard to money-laundering, there are particular obligations. Whether one is a lawyer or an accountant, if one discovers that a client is engaged in money-laundering, one has an obligation to report that to An Garda Síochána. It is in that area that the balance between the confidentiality of a solicitor-client or accountant-client relationship and the public good is tilted towards the public good by requiring reporting.

Section 19 is of importance not just in ensuring the ordinary employee or manager in a firm or financial institution must make a report when he or she discovers that the principal directors in the firm, for example, or others are engaged in white-collar crime; it also applies generally, right across the board, to white-collar crime, and will affect work undertaken by those professionally involved.

This legislation will facilitate the Garda in applying existing law more efficiently. Senator O'Donovan quite correctly and fairly referred to what I said in Opposition when I expressed frustration at the length of time it was taking for the banking investigations to be completed. One of the first questions I asked on my first day in the Department of Justice and Equality was whether the Garda had enough resources to conduct the investigations that are being undertaken and whether it had the expertise required. I asked whether additional assistance was needed, for example, from forensic accountants. I had that conversation with the Garda Commissioner and I asked my Department to arrange a meeting between the Garda Commissioner, those involved in the investigations and the office of corporate enforcement to ascertain whether there was anything the new Government could do to facilitate the progress of the investigation. The answer was "No". They had what they needed in terms of resources, but what they needed was legislation of this nature, which is why this legislation was prioritised.

I was interested to hear my good friend and colleague Senator Bradford refer to the fact that this Bill was published on Friday 13 May. We finalised it that week and published it as rapidly as we could. If Friday 13 May ultimately proves, as we look back on this in two years' time, to have been an unlucky day for those engaged in white-collar crime, perhaps it will also prove to be a day whose anniversary we celebrate to mark the publication of an effective measure to tackle the issue.

Senator Quinn referred to something that exists in parts of the United States - that is, a whistleblower reward scheme. In the context of the finances of this State, we are not in a position to pay people money for doing their duty to the State by assisting the Garda in reporting crime and notifying the Garda when they have information that would be of assistance in the prevention of white-collar crime. That should be seen to be an obligation of all citizens in the State if they know of an event of criminality that may take place and may have catastrophic consequences for individuals, companies or the State itself. We should see it as our obligation to make such reports. It should not be something we are seduced into doing because of the offer of financial reward. I hope that is not an approach we will have to take; certainly, it is not an approach the Government intends to take at the moment.

I am conscious that we are yet to have Committee and Report Stages of the Bill, and I appreciate that Fianna Fáil members, at least, are not tabling amendments. This does not mean that we should not tease out some of the sections on Committee Stage. Perhaps we can return to some of the questions I have not answered at that stage, and I am happy to take any other questions.

It is important that the laws we have are applied rigorously to bring to justice people engaged in criminality. Justice should be blind to the background of individuals - or, as Senator Cullinane mentioned, their class. Whether someone openly robs a bank or is engaged in a more pernicious form of white-collar crime which is more concealed, the same laws should apply.

It was unfortunate that section 57 of the Criminal Justice Act 2001 was not brought into force earlier. It was in my second or third week as Minister that I attended the conference mentioned earlier, at which this was drawn to my attention, and I became anxious that this would be brought into force as soon as possible. I hope by doing that, when court hearings take place, we will facilitate the furnishing of juries with information that assists them in understanding the nature of evidence given, particularly when dealing with corporate or white-collar crime, in order to achieve justice in the outcome of any case that is heard.

I thank Senators for their helpful and constructive contributions. I look forward to taking Committee and Report Stages.