Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister to the House. This side of the House will be supporting this legislation. We recognise that prior to his departure the outgoing Minister, Dermot Ahern, had done some work in this important area and that the Minister is proceeding swiftly in dealing with it, on which I compliment him.

Unfortunately, there is a perception that people, be it those in the legal profession such as my own and that of the Minister, accountants, those involved in assurance, and those in banking can, as the saying goes, "get away with murder" in certain instances. There is a view among the public that white collar crime has gone largely unnoticed and unpunished. That is something we must set aside clearly and unequivocally.

We also resonate with the idea that with the collapse of our banking structure and the economic crisis of the past three years starting in 2008, many ordinary people were hurt and affected by lack of regulation and control. There is a perception also that many of those involved appear to have got away with that.

The Minister made public comment regarding the investigation into Anglo Irish Bank where a large number of documents and disks were taken from the bank's premises. I understand an investigation is under way by the Garda, and I wish it luck in that regard, but it seems to be taking a very long time. When the Minister was on the other side of the House he commented on the lack of progress and I hope that with this new legislation or even without it - there is existing legislation - this matter can be pursued vigorously.

I pose a question to the Minister in good faith. Is he confident that the investigating branch of the Garda has sufficient capacity to deal with this convoluted area of law? I am not being disingenuous but I hope it has because this is a new, complex area. It is like the drug squads. Thirty years ago drugs were unheard of in Ireland but the drugs gangs got more efficient, sophisticated and lethal and the Garda had to meet that sophistication in its investigations.

An old country and western song came to mind recently when somebody told me that their house was repossessed. They said it was a fine thing that the banks robbed them with a gun but some lines in that old song stated:

Mr. Jones, the horse you sold me was not all that I desired.

You swore it was young and healthy, but now I know it's old and tired.

Mr. Jones, I'd like you better if you robbed me with a gun.

That is the perception, namely, that people have been robbed and wronged.

On the important aspects of the Bill, I welcome the breaking up of the detention period. It is a new advent and it is important that a suspect can be questioned for, say, four hours, released and be brought back six weeks later for another four or six hours of questioning as may be required. In the intervening period gardaí can collect other materials to help them carry out their investigation and resolve the crime. That is important and I welcome it.

The other aspect concerns the making of a statement. It is important that when a person uses the right of silence and does not make a statement or co-operate with the Garda the Minister has provided that an application can be made to the District Court by the Garda for orders requiring the production of material or the provision of information. I presume the Minister sees going to the District Court as a swift mechanism to deal with that problem. I presume also that an application to the District Court can be made instantaneously 24 hours a day, seven days a week if it is urgent. That is my understanding of the position.

On the documentary evidence, similar to the Anglo Irish Bank situation where huge volumes of documents were removed, I understand from the provision in this legislation that an onus can be put on the people from whom the information is being taken to have it coded and indexed in a particular way rather than simply bundling it together because it can take the Garda weeks, months and sometimes years to put all the pieces of the complex jigsaw puzzle together. That is an important provision.

On the area of legal privilege, somebody stated that the claim for legal privilege is sometimes used to delay and deter an investigation and so forth. This proposed legislation puts an onus in that regard on a person who refuses to disclose a document to the Garda or to allow possession of it to be taken pursuant to a District Court order. The legislation also imposes certain severe penalties if there is a lack of co-operation.

The Minister is also introducing a new Part with regard to the withholding of information. In that regard, such an offence, if it is proven, is punishable by an unlimited fine, imprisonment for up to five years or both.

The Minister referred to questioning between the hours of midnight and 8 a.m. In the case of a person detained for 24 hours, they get tired after eight or ten hours. The notion is that in so far as possible, questioning of a person would cease from midnight to 8 a.m. the following morning. In that regard, I presume the clock would stop to allow the person get a few hours sleep, have something to eat and start the questioning again the following morning at 8.15 a.m., refreshed and not tired when the clock would start again for the remaining period of the questioning. That is something I would welcome. I would welcome also if that could be broadened in other areas of the law.

With regard to certain serious crimes - those of subversives, for example - one can be detained for a maximum of seven days. Such legislation applied in the United Kingdom at one stage. I lived there in the 1970s during a bombing campaign by the IRA. At the time people disembarking from boats and planes, including me, were taken in and questioned for very innocuous reasons. While I understand the serious purpose of the legislation, the period of detention of 24 hours for a crime so sophisticated as white-collar crime could and should be extended. Perhaps the Minister will consider extending the statutory period to 48 or 72 hours for certain exceptional and complex circumstances. This is a very complex area and perhaps we could consider it in future legislation.

The Minister touched upon a very important legal provision, namely, the right to legal advice. When one is held in custody for relatively minor crimes, such as drink driving where there is no accident, one is normally entitled to consult a solicitor, if one wishes. In saying this, I am not detracting from the seriousness of some road traffic accidents. The right to consult a solicitor is a constitutional right rather than a right established under precedent and statute.

In this regard, the Minister stated that the Bill makes provision for the detention clock to stop subject to a maximum period pending a solicitor making himself or herself available for the consultation. This is important because I have heard of gardaí ringing around at 3 a.m. in the hope of finding a friendly local solicitor to visit the Garda station to give legal advice. Most solicitors, unless they are very young and eager, would prefer not to receive such a call. I have had to drag myself out of bed on occasion. I can understand the Minister's view that the clock should be stopped. There are periods in the week during which the clock has to be stopped. It is important to take this into account.

The Minister referred to the recent Irish Criminal Bar Association conference and to what Mr. Shane Murphy, SC, said. I concur and find it hard to believe that the relevant provision in the 2001 Act was never invoked. I am glad the Minister set the clock ticking in this regard. Both Mr. Shane Murphy, SC, and Mr. Dominic McGinn, SC, stated clearly in their submissions at the conference that there is an abundance of existing laws and regulations that could be better used. While this legislation is important and while buttressing is required in so far as this is possible, I ask whether enough use is made of existing laws and regulations, including in respect of the Anglo-Irish Bank investigation, for example. Did we use properly the laws already in place? If not, why not? I would hate to see a recurrence of their not being used.