Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)

I am very proud that it is known as the Lake County and of everything we have available in Westmeath. We have tremendous facilities. If the Senator ever visits the county, he will find the finest of equestrian facilities, lakes and much more and will be very welcome.

I am a little miffed and aggrieved that part of north Westmeath was hived off in forming the constituency of Meath West. People with whom I grew up were looking for my name when in the polling booth. I received a telephone call from a person in a polling booth to ask whether I was running in the election. These are people who played football and hurling and were educated with me.

I note the case in Limerick. I was in Waterford recently and the same applies there. I am a frequent visitor to Waterford because the Penrose family has an association with the county dating back many years. I, therefore, understand the significance attached to the geographical boundaries. That is a parochial but nevertheless well held viewpoint of mine.

As a barrister, I know the phrase, "in so far as possible", allows several outs. However, in so far as possible I hope the integrity of geographical county boundaries will be maintained.

I agree with Senator Mooney and know what being from County Leitrim means to him and what it meant to his late father, Joe, who was from Drumshanbo and represented the people of the county for many years not just in his electoral area but also in the field of music. I know what county boundaries mean to people. I, therefore, understand the antipathy and annoyance expressed when a county is severed. The Government will not have an input into the workings of the commission. That is only right if the independence of the commission is not to be compromised. However, I appreciate the points made by Senators.

On quangos, I am on the side of anyone who can reduce the number of agencies. A significant start has been made in my Department. In the next few months the number of agencies will be halved, which is only right. Agencies were established at a time when they might have had a purpose.

In early May I wrote to HSE headquarters on a number of issues and have not yet received a reply. That is not good enough, even if the reply is to get lost, which is its right if it believes my query is not appropriate. However, the issues are significant for the individuals concerned and I am their representative. They are known to me and suffering great pain. The more we can bring issues back within the area of political accountability the better and I will not change this view for anyone.

Spin doctors were mentioned. That reference could not have been directed at me because I do not even have a press officer. I do not subscribe to the view that one should have one's name attached to every tiddly event. People are more discerning than this. I am fed up with receiving press releases about Ministers welcoming this or that; tt is a load of nonsense. We are here to help the people and there is no need to look around to make sure one is the greatest boy or girl in the class. It is time we moved away from this practice as it brings a degree of cynicism into the game. Deputy Penrose could be followed ten seconds later by Deputy Mooney with another press release. It is a charade. Some of what I have done as a Minister of State has been useful, as acknowledged by other speakers. However, I did not issue press statements. I hope what I do will improve the lives of others. That is the only reason I am in politics. I started in this game a long time ago when I was only 13 years and two months old, to be precise, in October 1969 and hope I have made a difference, although I admit I have made some howlers. I am sure people will say Penrose does not know what he is talking about. That is a subjective view which anyone is entitled to hold. That is the principle of democracy.

I cannot accept the two amendments proposed. I am opposed to the proposal that there be an interim stage report, notwithstanding the well expounded arguments eloquently put by Senators Wilson and Mooney whose review of the historical revisions makes for interesting reading. I know the Senator has acknowledged the help he received from the Oireachtas Library and Research Service, but he has presented the facts extremely well, as one would expect him to do.

Constituency boundaries revision is not a perfect science, no matter who undertakes the task. Flaws will always be found. Boundary changes do not suit all parties at various times. I have made the point on occasion. Leitrim is an example in this regard and Senator Mooney will confirm that I am acutely aware of what has happened there.

It is inevitable that someone's interests will be affected during the revision process. That is the price we pay for our electoral system which, in general, has served us very well. Senator Mooney made the case regarding how well it has served us more eloquently than most. When the next commission issues its recommendations - and in view of the fact that the enactment of this Bill will lead to a reduction in the number of Deputies to be returned to the Dáil - some individuals will be extremely unhappy. However, the general consensus is that it is a job which must be entrusted to an independent commission. In that context, we should allow the commission to proceed to do its job in the way it sees fit but within the terms of reference that will be set down for it by the Oireachtas. It is important that terms of reference should be laid down and these are set out, in broad terms, in the Bill.

The amendment, in respect of which Senators Wilson and Mooney put forward a number of cogent arguments, seeks to introduce a two-stage process into the revision of constituencies. That would be a regressive step. I do not want to revisit the bad old days of the 1960s and 1970s when parties and Governments decided constituency boundaries. This left everyone involved open to the charges of gerrymandering or whatever. If such a two-stage process were introduced, it is almost inevitable that the same charge would arise if and when the final report of a constituency commission differed from an interim report.

When the next constituency commission is established, it will be operating under an improved public consultation process. The new and improved consultation arrangements set out in the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2009 mean that the minimum period of three months for making submissions to the commission will apply. I hope that, at the appropriate time, people will engage to the maximum extent possible with the consultation process instead of waiting to express their views when the commission has reported. The best hurler is always the one on the ditch. People should get on the field and make their views known. I realise that such views may not be accepted and may be termed "off the wall". I fully support and acknowledge the integrity and independence of the commission. It is vital that we should send out a message of strong support to the commission in respect of the important work it will be charged with carrying out. Said work is central to the effective functioning of democracy in this country. In that context, I cannot accept the amendment.

Senator Cullinane made a number of well-thought out arguments. However, the effect of opposing section 3 would be to retain the current arrangement of between 164 and 168 Members of Dáil Éireann to which a constituency commission must have regard in preparing its report. This is particularly at odds with the intention behind the Bill. On Second Stage, the Minister, Deputy Hogan, highlighted the current Administration's intention to reduce the size and cost of government. The changes to the constituency commission's terms of reference that are proposed in the Bill will achieve this objective. It is not good enough for those in the political system to ask others to change and make sacrifices. We must also be prepared to make some changes.

The measures outlined in the Bill provide that the minimum number of Members of Dáil Éireann is to be recommended by the constituency commission in accordance with section 6(2)(a) of the Electoral Act 1997 and shall be not less than 153 and not more than 160. The changes proposed by the Government will allow a constituency commission to recommend constituencies based on a reduced number of Deputies. This will meet the requirements set out in the Constitution. We are acting in a timely manner to ensure that the new constituency commission, which must be established upon the publication of the census results - these were issued on 30 June last - will be able to take account of the provisions in the Bill.

If I am allowed to do so, I intend to make a submission to the commission seeking that Westmeath be restored as a full constituency. It is my view that I have a right to do so. Notwithstanding the fact that the county of Westmeath is divided between constituencies, I continue to serve the people of north Westmeath because I believe I have a duty in this regard. This is despite the fact that the entire area from Castlepollard to Collinstown to Fore to Delvin and on to Clonmellon is included in the constituency of Meath West. That correlates with the points being made by the Senators opposite. I am sure Senator Mooney or the other public representatives continue to cater for the needs of the people of north and south Leitrim, regardless of the way in which the country is divided for constituency purposes. I genuinely hope the geographical integrity of counties will be maintained in so far as is possible.

The Constitution states that representation "shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population". I anticipate that a significant number of the submissions to the commission will focus on that point. I am not in a position to accept the amendment but I urge people to become involved in the consultation process relating to the commission and to make submissions before it brings forward its report. There is no point in waiting until the report has been published before complaining about various matters and stating that everything is a mess. I trust the commission will pay careful attention to the submissions made to it in this regard. After all, that is one of its functions. The commission is independent. I am of the view that we should cherish that independence.