Sean Barrett (Independent)

I wonder if reducing the number of Deputies, even by a small figure, and abolishing the Seanad misses how the country got into its current position. We need more scrutiny, checks and balances and parliamentary democracy. In recent times, the Executive as opposed to the Parliament, was all-powerful and the permanent government had massive power and was rarely questioned in the House. As we heard on the Order of Business, all of our problems crystalise from the banking decisions taken on 29 and 30 September 2008 in which Parliament was not involved. Perhaps we should have supervised the Central Bank which, in turn, should have supervised the commercial banks. In any case, the bankruptcy of the country had little to do with Parliament.

I note the rather extravagant estimates on the savings that would be achieved by reducing the number of Deputies and the millions of euro in savings to be achieved by abolishing the Seanad. We should examine the large number of quangos which were established and allowed to escape from parliamentary control, hollowed out Departments such as the Department of Health which devolved all of its functions to the Health Service Executive, thereby weakening parliamentary control, and the semi-State companies which the McCarthy report described as having evolved out of all control of their so-called parent Departments and which are not subject to any regulation. The report also found that they had a record, particularly in recent years, of wasteful capital expenditure and that their top executives were paying themselves extremely large amounts of money. I commend the Government on tackling the latter issue.

We rarely discuss the activities of pressure groups and lobbyists - notoriously in the case of banking but also in the case of the construction industry with which the Galway tent was identified - and the role of tax lawyers and accountants who appeared to have access to the Department of Finance to extract tax breaks worth approximately €12.5 billion per annum. The finance Act usually takes effect at a time of the year when Members are trying to get away, whereas the budget and its provisions to impose a penny on the pint or whatever are discussed seriously in both Houses and the media. The ability of lobbyists to extract major concessions from the Exchequer in tax shelters and tax breaks requires a strengthening of democracy. While it could be argued that reducing the number of Deputies would reduce the number of participants in a Punch and Judy show between political parties, the real issues of governance need to be faced. The relatively small reduction in the number of Deputies is a small part of the reform package. I sincerely hope the Seanad is not abolished. It should be redefined to give us more scrutiny, checks and balances and so forth.

Senator Cullinane raised the connection with Northern Ireland. Senators can make such connections themselves. One of the first things I did was to ask the Speaker in Stormont to arrange a visit. Based on my experience, Members who visit the Assembly to see it in operation will be most hospitably received. It is not always a matter for Ministers to arrange for Members to make friends with their counterparts in other parliaments.

The issue with Parliament has been essentially resolved with the election result in the sense that the Government that was adjudged to have done all the borrowing and given all the concessions to the banks has gone and its main party seriously reduced in numbers. The question that remains, however, is whether the permanent government and various quangos and non-performing semi-State bodies are still in place. Tackling these bodies with a stronger Parliament may be the way in which Ireland gets on its feet again.