Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 12, subsection (1)(a), line 45, after "the" where it firstly occurs, to insert the following:

"setting of certain revenues as may be established by order to be collected and the".

This is an important amendment, the purpose of which is to try to include wording which reflects the powers which, we understand, the Minister will have under the Bill. The Bill provides in principle that the Minister will have control and power, in so far as a Minister has power subject to legislation, in respect of the expenditure of revenue and tax through the Estimates. I understand the Minister will have power relating to appropriations-in-aid. We believe it is appropriate that the definition should include "revenue". We cannot accept a definition of expenditure in this case that does not include "revenue" because it is part and parcel of the Estimates process. The Minister stated in the Dáil that the term "certain revenues" was too broad. There is provision here to allow an order to be made to specify that and to give the Minister more scope. The Minister is entitled to define his powers under the order as narrowly or as broadly as he sees fit but we should not leave in place a definition which relates purely to expenditure when, in fact, the Estimates process relates to revenue as well.

The Minister stated in the Upper House that he will have full control of the Estimates process including revenue raised through appropriations-in-aid but the legislation is not so clear. The Oireachtas research office provided this side of the House with some information in this regard. The Minister's officials informed the office that the power is implied through the Minister's role in delivering the net Estimates and that there would be a series of delegation of powers between Ministers. However, we do not have the explanatory memorandum for the Bill as amended in the Dáil. This is a shame because the Bill has changed dramatically and we should have be given an explanatory memorandum at this stage. The Minister referred to the gross Estimates. I was not here for Second Stage and I have not had the opportunity to read what was said. Perhaps the matter was clarified but Appropriations-in-Aid, which are part of the Estimates, add up to approximately €11 billion and include, significantly, the social insurance fund. It is an important part of the Estimates. It is not appropriate that there is no clarity over whether the Minister with responsibility for public expenditure, in this case, the Minister, Deputy Brendan Howlin, will have these powers because it relates to so much money. We cannot imply powers in respect of billions of euro. If the Minister has power over appropriations-in-aid it should be clear in the text. The Minister should accept that he is taking over what are effectively tax raising powers in respect of the social insurance fund. If the Minister does not have control over appropriations-in-aid and if he is wrong then he is in a ridiculous position whereby he has power over gross Estimates but not net Estimates. Will the Minister of State provide a view? It is an important point because it relates to billions of euro.