Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

Some of my remarks relate to the section. The Minister has just come into the Chamber, but it would be fair to say we have covered a wide gambit, not only on the section but on debt forgiveness or debt relief. Some innovative suggestions were made by Senator John Crown with regard to allowing people access their pension fund before pension age to allow them pay off a mortgage, for example, which might be crippling them. There is some merit in that but we must look at the macro picture. In terms of our demographics, we are fortunate that we have a young population compared with other European Union countries, but that will change over time. People are living longer because of health care improvements and, as a consequence, everyone recognises that funding the elderly into the future is a serious issue for the country.

I agree with Senator Crown's point that many people were prudent in putting away their scarce resources to build a fund for their retirement. While that was done, we must recognise that only about half the working population are in a pension scheme. There is a coterie of people who are not in a scheme.

I listened with interest to what Senator Harte said about the fact that the amount is insignificant. I should have declared an interest at the outset that I have a small PPF but that will not influence my remarks. The 0.6% seems small but in terms of the maximum cap that has been put on it now of €2.3 million, if someone is to pay that contribution over the period, on my reckoning it will amount to approximately €56,000, which is €14,000 per year. In terms of what the salary might be to generate that sum, if, say, the person is on €70,000, €80,000 or even €100,000 and he or she has built up this pot, that is the equivalent of a 14% levy on his or her income, which I believe we would all agree is considerable.

There has been much changing of the goalposts with regard to pensions and that uncertainty is undermining the concept of encouraging the population to become involved in providing for their own future. Failure to do that means they will be reliant on the State, but it appears the State will not be in a position to cope with that for some considerable number of decades. Anything that flies in the face of that must be seriously questioned. I am not saying that because the Minister is present. I would have argued against the previous Government bringing in the notional disbursement and taxing a notional disbursement. That was wrong. When it increased from 3% to 5%, it was decided somewhere in the Department of Finance that this was a way of getting a revenue stream. I will outline a solution to the revenue aspect shortly. What it does is take away from people wanting to invest in pensions. That is the opposite direction to the one in which we must travel.

While we are accumulating a great deal of debt now, there is fair criticism that what we are doing is mortgaging the next generation's future. I believe we have a moral responsibility not to do that and that is the reason I advocate we deal with our problems in our lifetime and try to cut that.

I suggest to the Minister that the exclusion of the public sector from the levy and also people with significant sums in approved retirement funds, as Senator Darragh O'Brien-----