Alex White (Labour)

The point is that our policies are being determined elsewhere. There is no greater proof of that than that we must give reports monthly, quarterly and in some cases even weekly to our new masters on our progress on many of the issues set down in the agreement and in the memorandum of understanding, which I have read carefully. There is no question that there is, at the very least, close supervision of fiscal, budgetary and economic policy-making in this country. If there is any such thing as a loss of sovereignty, that is it. We can move on from it but there is no point stating that it has not happened when it manifestly has. To say that the fact that the US, a sovereign country, borrows internationally means there is a loss of sovereignty of the same character is nonsensical.

The second matter I wish to raise is something on which I agree with the Minister to some extent. An interesting debate is starting now, which Senator Ross spoke about, on the issue of whether there is an alternative. This will be at the heart of the election campaign, and I welcome that. The issues are the extent to which there can be renegotiation of the deal and the extent to which the senior bondholders can take an impact for what has occurred. These issues will be at the heart of the campaign. The Minister wants to have it both ways. He acknowledged here that in the course of the negotiations over the weekend in November he raised the question about the senior bondholders. He was told there was no appetite for that.

I would have been amazed if the Minister had not raised this, and the fact that he did raise it is welcome. He tried to get agreement on it but did not get very far. That is fine. However, he cannot tell those of us who say the issue must be revisited and re-opened that we are deluding ourselves. He saw fit to raise it and, apparently, got the bum's rush, if that is not unparliamentary language. That does not mean the issue is put to bed forever or that a new Government cannot be in a position or should not at least strive to be in a position to raise the issue again. I agree with the Minister that it cannot be done unilaterally. I disagree with Senator Ross, who holds the same position as Sinn Féin on the question of burning the bondholders. They believe we can simply announce that we are doing it and it will be all over.

The same question that is put to Sinn Féin must be put to my colleague, and putative new constituency colleague, Senator Ross. What will we do next year and the following year to pay for our public services? The idea is that it can happen unilaterally but I agree with the Minister that it cannot. However, that is not to say that it cannot be raised or pursued in the sophisticated way the Minister for Finance mentions. It must be done in a way that has regard to our interests, influence and, unfortunately, loss of influence in Europe. These questions must and will be re-opened by a future Government. There is no way that can be avoided.

The main reason it cannot be avoided is that every economist and commentator and Members of this House who are honest with themselves are fully aware that we cannot achieve what is in the four year plan in the time scale set out for it and that we cannot sustain the level of interest repayments required of us. It simply cannot be done, and everybody knows it. It is not included in speeches but when one talks to somebody after they have made a speech, they will say: "You are right. Of course, we cannot do it." Sooner or later we will have to move from our current state of double speak, in which people will say publicly and aspirationally that we will do it but then privately say they know it cannot be done, to getting to grips with the problem, examining the timetable that has been set out for us and revisiting the issue of the interest payment. These issues will and must be addressed by the new Government, regardless of what parties are in it, and there is no point saying that people who say as much are deluding themselves. They are not; they are speaking the truth.

It is the people who say we can deal with this issue by burning the bondholders at the stroke of a pen who are deluding themselves and attempting to mislead the electorate. These issues must and will come back on to the agenda. The Minister says that if we go to our European partners at this stage, we will be told to go home or take a running jump, to use his phrase. Unfortunately, that is what happened on the fateful weekend in Europe when our negotiating team and our negotiating hand were so weak. We came away with a dreadfully poor deal for this country. There is no question that we negotiated a bad deal with a weak hand. We were panicked into an agreement at the last minute, an agreement which even members of the Government, if we are to believe them, did not know about until it had practically already happened.

The chaos surrounding that event, the lack of a sense of clarity on the part of the Government as to what it was doing or intended to do and its lack of frankness with the people have added to the dislocation that now exists. When I talk to people, and I am sure colleagues have had the same experience, they tell me the worst thing for them is the squeeze on their incomes as a result of the universal social charge and so forth. It is said repeatedly by people, and they will tell the Minister for Finance the same thing when he knocks on their doors with regard to their pay packets, which he was so quick to refer to somewhat dismissively earlier.

People are basically gripped by a lack of trust and belief. I am sorry to point out, which might sound a little partisan, that the lack of trust is not just in Fianna Fáil. It is now so corrosive that it has gone into people's belief in themselves and in the possibility of this country getting out of this situation at all, with any Government. That is the level it has reached. People are despondent and despairing. The old refrain we encountered previously was that we are all the same, but the despair is at a different level now. It is a level at which their belief in their country and the ability of any sovereign Government to deal with the situation is being questioned. That is the worst legacy of the last three or four months of chaos, indecision and not just a lack of frankness but, at times, misrepresentation of the position by the Government to its people. It has reached the extent that people have lost trust, and that trust will have to be restored.

It will not be done on the basis of the Finance Bill before us. This Bill is a measure that was forced upon the Government rather than one on which it had an opportunity to engage genuinely with the public. I am glad we will have the opportunity to deal with this issue in the political context, which is where it belongs. Trust and hope must be restored.