Lisa McDonald (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the new Minister for Justice and Law Reform to the House and I welcome the introduction of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill. When we are discussing the amendment of the Vagrancy (Ireland) Act 1847 we may note without argument that the review and amendment of the law in this area is long overdue. For years, we have been unable to enforce the Vagrancy (Ireland) Act in its true form because it is altogether out of date and does not reflect modern society. The people of Ireland in 1847 lived in an entirely different world. Issues arising from the Dillon case have resulted in a lacuna in the law that we are required to address. In this regard we are here today to amend the law and to address the issues raised in the Dillon case.

As the Minister and Senator Regan have remarked, we must remember always the vulnerable in society. There have been many people during this recession who, unfortunately and through no fault of their own, have been thrown into poverty. The Bill deals with the issue of begging in a compassionate way.

I am keen to highlight the work carried out by the Simon communities, the Combat Poverty Agency and Merchants Quay Ireland. They are among several groups in Ireland which have carried out great work and put in great efforts to take people off the streets and away from begging. It is timely to mention the contribution these organisations have made to our society.

It is clear that begging is sometimes organised by individuals who may not necessarily be homeless. This is clear from going into the cities, from listening to "Liveline" some weeks ago and from speaking to people who live in such cities as Dublin, Limerick and Cork. I am from rural Ireland but I have spoken to people who live in cities and they maintain they are afraid to come into the cities at night.

Economic issues arise as well. Shopkeepers and people with businesses in the main thoroughfares where begging takes place have a problem in trying to ensure their premises remain open and that they have a welcoming environment for people who wish to come in to their shops and spend money. It is necessary to consider this point as well. The manner in which the Garda has been given powers to move and remove people who act unreasonably and violently is proportionate with regard to the act of begging. The idea of using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut is unwelcome and this is a compassionate way of dealing with the issue.

We will never have a full answer to anything in life but this law will help to deal with the matter in a more proportionate way. It always struck me that it was necessary to do this because the Garda did not have sufficient powers. People who were convicted under the Vagrancy (Ireland) Act were brought before the courts and were getting legal aid, representing an additional cost to the State. We must consider the whole picture and understand it is an improvement to make begging an offence when it is accompanied by unacceptable conduct such as harassment, intimidation or obstruction.

The issue of begging by children is difficult to discuss. It is terrible to see children begging on the streets. A great deal of work has been done in this area in recent times, including the passing of the Children Act 2001 and the establishment of Leanbh by the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children in 1997. These developments led to a considerable fall in numbers but the non-governmental organisation in question has become concerned about the rise in numbers in recent years. There are genuine concerns about the exposure of children to bad weather, violence and drugs. They are vulnerable and susceptible to all kinds of violence.

There is no evidence to suggest that children are involved in organised begging but, at the same time, it is difficult to prove and it could be below the surface. Parents should examine their own behaviour as well. If parents are helping to organise begging for their own children, it is beyond contempt. However, the Bill attempts to deal with the issue of moving people on in a compassionate and proportionate way.

The issues of homelessness and housing relate to different area and a different Minister. However, it is vital that we consider joining the up the dots between Departments at some stage. For example, we are dealing with begging in this case but there is another side of the issue which relates to homelessness and poverty and this is dealt with by a different Ministry. Therefore, things can fall between two stools and a lacuna may arise. It may not be a lacuna in the law but problems may be caused by the way in which there is no seamless connection between Departments.

Ultimately, people are intimidated by begging at automated teller machines, ATMs, and parking and vending machines. It is welcome that the Garda now has the power to enforce the law and to move people ten metres away. Sometimes people are bullied into giving money to beggars. While many wish to give out of the goodness of their hearts and feel sorry for people, it must be done in a proportionate way. This is something to which everyone is entitled.

I note the remarks of the Minister regarding charities and the position taken that the Bill does not include people who seek to collect for charities. However, what is the situation with busking? Often, busking on the streets adds a certain charm and ambience, especially to Grafton Street or other main thoroughfares. Does this classify as begging or does it fall into a different category? Overall, I welcome the Bill, the long-overdue amendment of the law and the measures to modernise the legal code.