Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive reply and accept the point about employment agreements. He did not deal with the issue of where the jobs would be created and where they would be lost. He half dealt with the issue of the gap between welfare and minimum wage by dealing with jobseeker's allowance. That does not take from the force of the argument I made previously.

I have said what I had to say and I do not intend to carry on with this discussion. I got caught up in my own argument on the question of benchmarking. People should be aware of the following point when discussing benchmarking. It costs €1 billion per year and the Minister, in his last contribution on this issue in the Dáil a couple of weeks ago, indicated that the amount which the public sector has paid back over the past two years is €1.8 billion. That includes Deputies and Senators, as well as everybody else.

It is important to note that benchmarking has been reversed and the Croke Park agreement has an objective to save another €1.2 billion. By the end of next year the public sector will give back €3 billion per year. That disposes of any argument about where we are with benchmarking or what it has done. We should look at the people who got us into the hole for all those billions and I completely agree with the Minister of State on his point about the €85 billion. I have said myself that it is a draw-down facility. We can forget that example but we can use the €35 billion for Anglo Irish Bank or the other bits and pieces that can be added. I can put another set of figures in front of the Minister of State but I took the €85 billion in a rhetorical flourish. Although I agree with the Minister of State's comments, it does not take one iota from my argument. How much have these people paid back?

It sticks in my craw when people point to the public sector, benchmarking or the Croke Park agreement and ask how it will work. We will discuss it later and people appear to find it complex. It will save more than 20,000 jobs and over €1 billion per year. I do not know what part of this people do not understand or find unsustainable. I hear people saying that we cannot afford the agreement, insinuating that we cannot afford to save 20,000 jobs or €1.2 billion. That is illogical. I will listen if people argue that the agreement is not working or delivering, as it must be made to work and deliver. There is an idea that we cannot afford it but we cannot afford not to have it. If we did not have it people would be on the streets fighting but this is an agreement which can deliver for the people. We will discuss it later today. I will oppose the section.