Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)

I could have anticipated Senators' comments because the matter has already been debated on several occasions and their parties' views are well known. No Government wakes up with a rush of blood to its head and decides to reduce the minimum wage. Evidence supports the decision to reduce it at a time of rising unemployment. Nearly 300,000 people are unemployed and a further 150,000 are on the live register and receiving social welfare payments while, possibly, in part-time employment.

The minimum wage cannot be viewed in isolation from labour activation measures, the tax system and social welfare payments. Many of the sectors to which Senators referred are governed by collective bargaining arrangements rather than the minimum wage and a wide range of low paid jobs are governed by employment regulation orders and joint labour committees. The change introduced in this Bill will not have an impact on these arrangements. Over the coming months, we will be conducting a review of the collective bargaining arrangements of the joint labour committees with a view to streamlining them. Even though people are blaming the EU and the IMF or the Government as it suits them, many of these measures have already been announced in the context of amalgamating the joint labour committees.

Approximately 52,000 people are currently employed at the minimum wage. Our legal advice clearly states that if an individual is working under contract at or above the minimum wage, that contract will continue to obtain. It has been brought to my attention that certain employers have already begun to lay off staff. That is a breach of contract and the National Employment Rights Authority is the statutory body charged with enforcing contracts and terms and conditions of employment. When the order is signed under this section, the new national minimum wage will be €7.65. Those who worked under the old system will have contracts and agreements with their employers.

Employers are obligated to pay that unless there is an agreement between the employer and employee to reduce the rate.

I refer to the comments of the wise old sage, Senator O'Toole, in regard to the remuneration of public servants and public representatives. That should not cloud this. Regardless of what happens with one group, we cannot deny people on social welfare the opportunity to find employment even if it is at a reduced rate of remuneration. That is, effectively, what Senators are saying.

We know the economy is struggling, there are competitiveness problems and people on the lower end of the scale are losing their jobs. By reducing the rate, we could get employers to take on a extra employee or retain employees. For every employer who would like to undermine the terms and conditions of his or her employees, there are multiples of decent employers. The National Employment Rights Agency's figures also suggest that to be the case.

There is a difficulty retaining people at €8.65 per hour. Forfás produced a report which I am sure is available to Senators. There is statistical data in regard to high unemployment. This must be flexible. There is a need to try to shift as many people from social welfare into employment.