Martin Brady (Fianna Fail)

I hear a lot about the wealthy. I recall an interview with Vincent Browne in which a self-appointed politician made a point about the wealthy. What are we speaking about here? Who are these wealthy people, where are they and how do we get at them? Is a wealthy person one who set up his or her own business and has now become a billionaire? I would like some definition of how many of these wealthy people there are, what amount of wealth they possess and whether we are talking of taking that wealth from them, making them pay tax or otherwise. I would like the point clarified because it arises in almost every debate.

Senator Quinn referred to work. An advisor to the British Parliament noted that people can be mentally conditioned from working age to believe they will never have to work and will get a handout from the state for as long as they live. That is bad for the person and for society in general, creates issues of anti-social behaviour and can create a burden for the health service. It is a major problem in our own welfare system.

A person who is working should receive at least 20% more than a person on social welfare but that is not happening. Senator Quinn alluded to a situation where a person in Drogheda, when made redundant, got €5,000 more per annum than when he was working. One can get up to €52,000 on social welfare, with family income supplement and various other bits and pieces.

We regularly hear complaints in regard to getting people back to work. A person told me recently that members of the public service can retire early and then go onto the open market and take up jobs that young people should get. I am not sure how we can address this issue. With regard to the abuse of social welfare, the former Minister for Social and Family Affairs, as it then was, Deputy Mary Hanafin, came to grips with that issue but there is still a major problem.

With regard to homelessness, it is often asked how people are homeless when so many houses are empty in cities and towns and whether something can be done about this. The other question that arises is whether people voluntarily choose to be homeless, although I do not know the answer. I watched a television programme recently about a person who had become homeless. The man gave a great account of how he became homeless and how he got back with his family. He had been homeless for three or four years and was lucky to survive to tell the story.

A budget should be about fair play for people. I was very disappointed a cut was made to payments to blind people because they are among the most vulnerable in society. Senator McFadden referred to school dinners but I understand dinners are still being provided in schools in disadvantaged areas.

With regard to getting people back to work, community employment schemes are being fairly well administered in most cases but there can be a lack of sufficient supervision and checks. Complaints have been made to me that people do their own thing and come and go as they please, with no discipline, order or pattern. It is an issue we must examine. If we are putting these schemes in place, we must look for accountability, ensure the taxpayer is getting value for money and ensure proper checks are in place. I have undertaken many investigations in this regard so I know this is not happening at present in many cases.

Another problem is that we have huge departmental bodies, such as the HSE, which from one day to the other does not know what it is doing. It has a surplus of staff and I understand some 1,100 of its staff have no work to do. I am told a hospital in Cashel has 200 staff who go into work each day but have no work to do because they did a deal with the unions. I got a friend of mine to telephone that hospital one day. He said he had broken his ankle and the receptionist or porter he spoke to shouted to other staff, asking whether they could do anything for my friend. The staff member then told my friend to come to the hospital as they could possibly put a bandage on him, although the hospital was not really open. This type of experience is widespread. Money is being wasted in such areas with no supervision or checks. We must follow up on these issues.