Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the Minister and I look forward to the responses to the debate. I come at this from a slightly different perspective to that of my colleague, Senator Ross. It is important that he has tabled the motion and that we hold a discussion. I hope the debate will not be on the basis of interruptions and that people deal with the issues. I do not come at this on the basis of issues, but on the technicality of the motion and I hope to convince the House why I reached the position to second the motion. We discussed various approaches, including the possibilities of the budget, but this is the motion we agreed Senator Ross would move.

I put it to the Government and to the Minister that I have supported a good deal of Government decision making during the past two years. Senator Ross and I have disagreed on some of the issues. I supported the deposit guarantee scheme and NAMA and I do not believe there has been a loss of sovereignty with regard to the IMF business. I have no wish to go into those issues but I wish to put it on the record. There will be no easy response to the points I am making.

I wish to put a question to the Leader and the Minister. I have dealt with the Government, listened to its proposals and responded to them in a positive or critical way, depending on the case, as I have gone along. Although I disagreed with many of the things the Government did, the question of confidence did not arise until one party in Government stood up out of the blue and declared it was walking away from the Government. I seek an answer to this question: how can I have confidence in the Government members when half of them claim they cannot live with the other half? This is a straightforward practical issue and one of the problems I have with the Green Party.

Another problem with the Green Party in government is its legislative list. I was led to believe that it would bring forward reform and major legislation on local government in Government. However, we have got nowhere with it. I heard one colleague discuss the importance of urban councils and councillors this morning. I agree completely with the views expressed. That person's reasons may be somewhat different from mine but I agree with the structure for local government endorsed. I had looked forward to the legislation on the Dublin mayor which would deal with several other matters in which I took an interest as well. More than anything else, I looked forward as did my colleague Senator Ross to the proposal on corporate donations which, we were assured, the Green Party would introduce before it left Government. How can I have confidence if I have been given these sacred promises and commitments from which it is now walking away? I am asked to have confidence in the Government which is, at the very least, half broken.

A further issue with that half of the Government relates to the facts on Seanad reform. I have simply given up on it. Senator Ross and myself have listened to discussions time and again. We attended a meeting chaired by the Minister, Deputy Gormley, some two and a half years ago. We were given a guarantee that proposals would emerge from the meeting within a couple of weeks. Then it became a couple months and then it became Christmas. That was one year ago and we are still waiting. Will the Leader indicate the position on this matter? Apparently the Government is taking a political line on the question of Seanad reform and is trying to match Fine Gael. A significant constitutional issue relating to the Houses of Parliament is being made into a political issue. The matter should be debated although I have no wish to go into it now. However, if we do not see the colour of the Government's money on a promise it made at the beginning of its term of office which it is now considering ignoring, how can I have confidence? These are straight questions and I call on the Minister and the other side to address them.

Regarding the Fianna Fáil Party, I was elected to this House some 24 or 25 years ago. One of the people elected at that time was Deputy Dermot Ahern. I have known him for that period. He and I may disagree on many things but I know him to be honest, truthful, committed and not for turning. I saw him hung out to dry two weeks ago. I am unsure whether it was done deliberately and I am not interested in the question of untruths, lies or whatever. The fact is that we were all misled by two Ministers, including Deputy Dermot Ahern, but I do not believe he would do so deliberately. That is my judgment on that man. I believe he is honest and straightforward. Therefore, something was broken in Government and this created a situation where two Ministers faced the cameras and were effectively hung out to dry. They made fools of themselves and could not do anything about it. How can I have confidence if two significant Ministers in the main party in Government are treated like that?

Another issue is the talk within Fianna Fáil of changing the leader. I wish to offer a judgment in this regard. If there is someone in the Fianna Fáil Party who can handle finances better than the Taoiseach I wish to know who it is.