David Norris (Independent)

I just paid the Minister of State a little compliment but now I am picking his speech to pieces. I listened to the emollient tones of the oleaginous Mr. Chopra on the wireless telling us what good, brave, little soldiers we were, that he had every confidence in us. That was patronising in the extreme. When he said we got a "good deal" I knew he was telling lies because this is an absolutely lousy deal. Some of the reasons for that belief were laid out in a very gentlemanly fashion by my colleague, Senator Paschal Donohoe. We are paying punitive interest rates. The rate is not 5.8%. If we have to go right to the top end of our borrowing we will be paying a rate that has not actually been disclosed yet but it will be a hell of a lot more than 5.8%. Why is this? We were told it is to introduce moral hazard. I feel like laughing. What do these people who are instructing us know about moral hazard? They are the very ones who are protecting the gamblers and speculators and they are no friends of Ireland. There is no such thing as altruism at that level of European politics. They are protecting their own backsides as well as they possibly can. The reason Germany, for example, does not want the bondholders burned is because so many of the German banks are involved. Many of these are crooked as I was able to demonstrate on an Adjournment debate in the House. That matter was never resolved satisfactorily although the Allgemeine Zeitung took it up. Those people are exposed in our system and are serving their own self interest while the Irish taxpayer has to pay for the gambling habits of German, Swiss, Italian and French banks. That is wrong.

On the Order of Business yesterday I asked a series of questions, one being whether the Government intended to lay the full terms of the memorandum of understanding before both Houses and allow them to vote. The answer is "No". My colleague, Senator Hanafin, said the Government does not lead excursions into the bond market. This present matter is of a totally different scale. It involves constitutional infringement and direction to the Irish Parliament as to which laws to make, what we are allowed do with the lenders' money and what reserves are available to filch from the people. That is a different process. It is not a little shopping expedition down to the financial equivalent of Dunnes Stores. This is a smash up and the sooner we tell the truth about it the better. It is offensive to try to suggest it is in the same league as ordinary transactions.

The Minister of State said the question of burning the bondholders was raised during the course of negotiations. That is weak. It appears the matter was actually raised. I wish to put on the record that one of the largest players in this area, Mr. El-Erian from Pimco, indicated that it would be grossly wrong for these people not to suffer some of the punishment. If such people are saying so there must be something right about it.

The other question concerned morality. Let us have a little morality in this situation. Every reputable economist and financial commentator has said it is morally wrong, unjust and unethical for Irish taxpayers to be stuck with this bill on their own and the bondholders should take their share. We are told that although this may be ethical it is not practical. I remember hearing that argument from the other side of the House many years ago when the Iraqi beef deals were revealed. I was told by Deputy Seán Haughey, who was spokesman on foreign affairs at the time, that although what I had suggested might be the ethical path to take the question was whether we could afford it. It was the same argument. We got stung on that one, however, because we did the unethical thing and were presented with an enormous bill by the late Mr. Saddam Hussein.

Is it possible to sustain a proper and ordered civic society and a proper and ordered banking system on a foundation of immorality, injustice, lack of ethics and theft? That is what confronts us. For the Minister of State's benefit I reiterate what I said earlier because I am sure he does not go back with assiduity over the proceedings of the House. This is now a war. People are saying that Portugal is being taken on, that Spain and Italy are being targeted. I do not share the confidence in Mr. Berlusconi expressed by one of my colleagues. He is an utterly disreputable person and I would not attend any occasion in his house with or without a table between us. These people are targeting us, we are told. It is a war. They have made it a war. Let us take them on. Let us perfect the weaponry necessary to disable them. Let us also take on the utterly discredited ratings agencies.

With regard to the question of whether we can take on the bondholders, we are told there are associated risks, which there may be. It is certainly not a risk to our reputation because we have absolutely no reputation left. It is like the situation in libel in that one cannot sustain a defence against libel if one has no reputation. Our reputation is gone. We discover from a report by Barry O'Halloran in The Irish Times that the Republic's deal with the IMF and EU explicitly bans the State from defaulting on guarantees. That is an extraordinary statement. The report states: "the Government cannot fall into arrears on either its contracted or guaranteed external debts, meaning the debts of the banks that it has guaranteed". We are not allowed to do so. In other words, external, unelected sources are directing that the Irish taxpayer cannot even negotiate a situation with these bondholders who, by the way, received additional interest on the basis they were taking a risk. Why do we not take it away from them? I voted against that. There was some confusion and an attempt to rectify the situation in terms of the report, but from the very beginning I said Anglo Irish Bank should be let go.

If we get into arrears, the National Treasury Management Agency will have to report to our bosses. NAMA has now become mama, who will report to teacher, and teacher will give us a smack every so often. Naturally, as a proud Irishman, I do not like that. I like even less the idea that we may be directed to sell Bord Gáis and the ESB, which are the vital life of our country. Industry cannot keep going and homes cannot remain heated without gas and electricity, yet we are going to let this shower of foreigners dictate to us that we have to flog them, as we did with Eircom, which was picked clean. Sir Anthony did not kill himself investing in broadband, despite the fact we are not allowed to mention that as it might offend him.

We are to be given dribs and drabs of money - pocket money - which will be doled out if we are good boys and girls. We have been good and we have been punished for it. No good deed remains unpunished. To come back to the point on Bord Gáis, we definitely should not do that because it would be an utter betrayal. We should take on the big boys. We should also take on Shell. That would see €500 billion flowing out of this country over the lifetime of the wells, of which we will not get one red cent because it was sold as well. Why can we not renegotiate that one? Are we always to be held to this idea of financial rectitude in the interests of these people but it is suspended when the interests of the small people are involved?

The only reason I have been able to put accurate figures on the record is owing to people like Peter Mathews. Let us have a committee of elders, such as Peter Mathews and Constantin Gurdgiev, not these trashy, sensationalist journalists but this solid type of person who has been very clear and accurate. Every time they prophesied, they got it right. In fact, I withdraw the word "prophesied" and instead say they theorised, because the proof of a theory in science is that one can predict the consequences of the next series of actions. They predicted with astonishing accuracy, so let us have them involved in the situation.

The ECB flooded this country with loose cash it was dying for people to take up. We have heard much about stress testing. It stress tested our banks and said they were perfectly all right. Does anyone remember that? The ECB has some culpability too. Let us not delude ourselves that we have great friends in Europe. We have people who are still competing for their own interests and they are not necessarily taking into account the needs and interests of the people of Ireland.

We have given away the strongest card in our hand, namely, we could have brought the entire system down. That would not entirely break my heart because it will come sooner or later. The whole financial system has been called into question because of its utter and manifest lack of justice, ethics, principle, integrity, decency and humanity. We are dealing here with the welfare of ordinary people right across Europe. As Senator Donohoe pointed out, we will be bearing the brunt of much of the pain and much of the backwash from the fact Ms Angela Merkel came out with that notion. At the same time, I happen to agree with her, although the Senator is right to say the timing was unfortunate for Ireland which has been made to pay. I hope the incoming Government finds it has some room for manoeuvre. Account should be made to this House and the other House of the actions of Government in this matter.