Joe O'Toole (Independent)

This is an important document at which we must look in a level-headed way and to which we should try to take a balanced approach. I congratulate the Minister of State for what he said, that he wanted to hear from Members and that extra time had been provided for a response. I have no doubt he will return to this later.

After we finish discussing this, it is important we have another day's debate on the possible ways to create growth. Even though the plan contains specifics, to which I will refer shortly, about various aspects, generalities, economic indicators and requisite economic changes, we must examine the kinds of initiative that we want this and the incoming Governments to take in hand.

I will address Senator MacSharry's point about the Croke Park agreement. I have been the agreement's greatest critic and greatest supporter in the House, so I will acknowledge a few points. For public servants, it was important that the Minister for Finance acknowledged the public service's contribution. He clearly stated that the contribution was made without crowds taking to the streets, strikes or interference with the operation of the apparatus of the State. The savings contributed by public servants in recent times amount to €1.8 billion per year. I want to put this in context. Like the Cathaoirleach, I must sit in the Chamber and listen to a great deal during the course of the Order of Business. Often, I would prefer to be speaking last rather than first. What does €1.8 billion mean? Figures like that mean nothing to anyone anymore, so I will put it simply - it amounts to twice benchmarking. This contribution was made before the Croke Park agreement. Whenever anyone mentions benchmarking in the lounge, at a meeting or in the Chamber, the Cathaoirleach might interrupt to explain that benchmarking has been repaid twice over.

Senators Twomey and MacSharry made a point about the slow implementation of the Croke Park agreement. While I agree with them concerning the areas of flexibility that must be pursued, it is not all bad news. Since the agreement's commencement, the number of jobs that have been saved, not filled or extinguished is 14,000. For two or three months, I have stated how the agreement should bring with it savings derived from 25,000 jobs of at least €1 billion. I received many queries at the time, so I am glad to see the Government has put figures on those savings in this document. It must have been listening to me, because it has called for a reduction of 25,000 jobs, which I believed was a possibility, and savings of €1.2 billion per year. This means that the public service, having repaid €1.8 billion to date and given the €1.2 billion to be saved under the Croke Park agreement, will be returning €3 billion per year.

Anyone running a business knows that the bottom line in terms of pay is the bottom line in terms of pay. It can be dealt with in two ways, although they both achieve the same result. One can cut pay across the board or cut numbers. Under the Croke Park agreement, the result is to be achieved via numbers. Let us consider what we are trying to save - €1.2 billion per year under the Croke Park agreement. This is the benchmark that we must find. Next week, we will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, how much of that amount has been saved so far. We know there will be so many thousand jobs involved.

It is not all bad news, but I agree with Senator MacSharry that the flexibilities, which are equally important, are not occurring quickly enough. The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, and I know this, as we have sung from this hymn sheet together many times. For the public service and the Civil Service to survive, they must show themselves to be the model of best practice in Europe. It can be done, given the intellectual investment in our Civil Service and public service. I agree with the Senator in that there should be no delays. We should see progress month by month. He might have been OTT in asking for it all to have been done yesterday. The plan should have been put in place yesterday, but the implementation must be done over time.