David Norris (Independent)

I welcome the view that this is an incremental situation. We had this argument about the cluster bombs issue and most Members who have taken the trouble to be involved in this issue were also involved in that debate. It was the same situation in which some substantial armies, regrettably involving people who present themselves as defenders of western values, were quite prepared to use and manufacture cluster munitions until a pretty late stage. We wanted to detach ourselves from this. I would regard that as the correct position. As my distinguished colleague, Senator Boyle spoke, I was more inclined to support the Labour Party's amendment because I do not think it right, correct or honourable for Irish military personnel to be involved in the use of these things. If we regard them as wrong and as dangerous and that inevitably there will be civilian casualties - although this is denied in a most dishonest way by the British military authorities - then if in light of those impacts on the civilian population, particularly the development of various diseases, notably clusters of cancers and blood diseases, I do not think our soldiers, sailors or members of the Air Corps should be involved. I strongly support the Labour Party amendment.

I was being slightly jocose about the Minister of State's appearance on television last night but I wish to put on the record of the House that the Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche, has been right to the fore in supporting this kind of progressive legislation. I raised related issues quite recently and the Minister of State was not available as he was abroad. I think the debate would have taken a very different turn in terms of the script written for the particular Minister in the House at the time had Deputy Roche been in the driving seat on that occasion. I am very glad he is here to take charge of this debate. In a circumstance where a Minister is not available, through no fault of his own, and a script is delivered that contradicts what was said on previous occasions by that Minister, it is only honourable that those of us on this side of the House who are taking part in both debates should place on the record of the House the honourable position adopted by the Minister of State in these matters. It is all part and parcel of his approach to human rights in terms of defence and strategy. I welcome the fact he is here and the leader of the Green Party and his colleagues are here to present the Bill.