Phil Prendergast (Labour)

I listened carefully to what has been said in this debate and I am glad to have this opportunity to contribute to it. The criticism of Crumlin hospital as a facility is perhaps justified but the staff, ranging from the porters to medical and nursing staff, and the care that is given to children in emergencies and to those in need of tertiary care is without question of the highest standard. The staff do a terrific job under very difficult circumstances. There were opportunities during the boom times to make good improvements there but that did not happen.

I am disappointed the Minister, Deputy Harney, has left the Chamber because I want to pick up on something she said. All the Dublin hospitals endorsed the idea of having a co-located hospital on a general hospital site, as set out in the McKinsey report. The Minister said there would be no more stand-alone hospitals, including maternity hospitals. If there are to be no more stand-alone hospitals, facilities that exist in hospitals such as the acute psychiatric unit in South Tipperary General Hospital, in which the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney will be interested, should not be relocated to Kilkenny because it will remove vital services in that area. As we have seen from recent events, we were never more in need of acute psychiatric services. This is not the subject under the discussion but I availed of this opportunity to make that point on foot of what the Minister said. I would be happy to be hopeful that this decision might be reversed.

On the issue of a location in Dublin being the site for the hospital, I agree that density of population is a key issue. Therefore, I would not see a location in Athlone as being an ideal site for it. Even though access to such a location in Athlone might be easier, the hospital should be located where there is a density of population and the highest density of population is in Dublin.

There are misgivings about the site. As a health care professional who has travelled on many occasions with a flying squad - we did not fly but travelled on the roads - when children were born with, say, an exaomphalos or a diaphragmatic hernia and we had to travel from south Tipperary with a very ill neonate to Dublin, there was no problem. Parents and anyone present in this Chamber, whether he or she is a parent, a health care professional or a care giver in any capacity, would say that he or she would travel anywhere to ensure his or her child would get the best care.

These are not my points but points that were made to me. There are misgivings about the Mater hospital site being the location of the new children's hospital. The late Dr. Maurice Neligan, God rest him, withdrew his support for the Mater site because he said crucial decisions were made on limited or selective criteria and without honest debate. I would like to think that the debate we are having is honest and not only one that assumes that this is the decision and nothing can be changed. Some valid contributions and opinions can be given. I am not necessarily reflecting my opinion but opinions that have been put to me. Some people would say the location was selected as another Bertie vanity project for his own constituency but I will not go into that debate.

Philip Lynch's resignation as the chairman of the board seemed to indicate there was a problem. Was the issue that he had lost confidence in the Mater site for the building of this new 440-bed hospital? We do not know that and the issue around it is not clear, but his resignation says something about it. I am aware he met the developer, Noel Smyth, in the summer to discuss alternative sites and I am not suggesting support for Noel Smyth, although he has become the focus and a rallying point around which an alterative view is being articulated.

The advent of NAMA creates new possibilities for finding a site, but the argument for a site close to the M50 is strong while the argument for the Mater site is weak. This morning it took me only 42 minutes to reach the point where the building of the new extension is going ahead, but that was without taking account of the time involved in trying to find a car parking space. Car parking is a big issue, which has been articulated by other contributors to this debate. There are 1,000 underground parking spaces for members of the public and for 1,500 staff. I am not suggesting that every member of staff has a car and that every member of the public accessing the facility will have a car but if they do, it will be tough. The access to a site close to the M50 appears to be more convenient for people outside Dublin and the Dublin suburbs, which is what the M50 is for, in effect.

Mr. Smyth believed that a site close to the M50 would be €150 million to €250 million cheaper and he offered to build on a not-for-profit basis. While I appreciate the contribution by the nuns of a site on the Mater campus is a generous one, we must have open minds on this matter. Everyone wants to have a world class hospital but the issue of access is vital. Mr. Smyth believes that because the planning application for the Mater Hospital site is before An Bord Pleanála, the Government is obliged to consider alternatives such as his proposed site. I ask the Minister of State to respond and, if he is unable to do so today, he could do so when replying to a letter I wrote to him following last week's debate on mental health.

The Health Service Executive refused to hear Mr. Smyth's presentation on the basis that the new hospital must be located at an adult teaching hospital. He has also offered to build a new hospital at any location chosen by the Government. The location Mr. Smyth proposes at Newlands Cross is one mile from Tallaght Hospital, which is part of the National Children's Hospital. I trained as a midwife in Whipps Cross maternity hospital, part of the general campus of Whipps Cross Hospital. The campus has a corridor that is one mile in length and is used for many purposes besides transporting patients. I refer to this to highlight that it is not beyond the realms of possibility to have a facility that is one mile long.

Under the current plan, a funding shortfall of €110 million will need to be raised through fund-raising efforts and philanthropy. I am concerned that it will not be possible to achieve this target in the current economic climate. Other contributors have voiced similar concerns.

The €650 million estimated cost of building a new hospital at the Mater Hospital site does not include information and communications technology costs, which are estimated at more than €100 million. As this money will to be provided from HSE funding, this additional cost will have implications for the health service and the project. In light of other cutbacks in the health budget, the overall deficit will amount to more than €200 million.

I am also concerned about other cutbacks. At the weekend, I saw a proposal to cut the budget for mental health in HSE west by €5 million. It is a matter of grave concern that such proposals are being made when a project to develop a new national paediatric hospital will reduce the overall health budget by €1 billion. This concern must be addressed by the Minister of State, whose presence I welcome, and his boss, the Minister, who has left the Chamber, unfortunately.

The board of Crumlin hospital and the nurses employed there want the new hospital built on a site near the M50. They are most familiar with the experiences of patients and children. As I indicated, the travel time from the M50 at Blanchardstown to the proposed new site at the Mater Hospital is not less than 30 minutes and can be more than one hour, depending on the time of day, traffic volumes, etc. In most cases, one can expect the journey to take between 30 minutes and one hour. Moreover, contrary to what the Health Service Executive claims, the Mater Hospital is not close to train links. It takes 30 minutes to walk to the Mater Hospital from Connolly Station and the nearest Luas stop.

While I welcome the proposal to have a roof garden at the new hospital, I would be nervous about visiting a garden at the top of a 16-storey structure. A Dublin city centre location will not offer great opportunities to avail of fresh air.

The benefits of the M50 include an abundance of low cost hotels in the vicinity, easier access for those living outside Dublin and the possibility of accommodating expansion of the new hospital and the Coombe Hospital. It has been argued that postponing development at the Mater Hospital site would delay the project. Given that the new hospital is not due for completion until 2015, three years later than originally planned, a greenfield or brownfield site could be developed quickly because to do so would not create as much disruption as a the project at the Mater Hospital site.

Some 1,800 children are on waiting lists while wards lie idle at Tallaght Hospital, Crumlin hospital and Temple Street hospital. I await with interest the response of the Minister of State on the issues raised. As I noted, I wrote to him last week seeking clarification when he was unable to answer questions in a debate on the effects of the recession on mental health. If he is unable to give answers to specific questions, I would be grateful if he could do so in his reply to my letter.