Fiona O'Malley (Independent)

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this debate even though it is difficult because it is disjointed from the debate last week. Regarding the point made by Senator Cummins, the Minister made clear that 0.2% of the prison population is in prison as a result of fines. We must keep a sense of perspective on this matter. It is a very small number of people. I agree with Senator Cummins that there should be no one in prison for the non-payment of fines. However, we need deterrents.

The success of a prison system depends on two groups, in particular, those who provide the service, namely, the prison officers, and the prisoners themselves. One presumes prisoners do not want to be incarcerated. The question, therefore, is whether there is an opportunity for rehabilitation. When discussing prison policy, it is important to ask that question. One must decide whether the purpose is to lock people up or to rehabilitate them. In a more civilised society it must be about rehabilitation also as much as a sanction in terms of a loss of liberty. What we should focus on is how the experience of prison can affect prisoners in a positive way and improve them in terms of availing of training and education opportunities. That is the most important aspect of a prison service.

Being a prison officer must be one of the toughest jobs because one is dealing with people who often have committed violent crimes and the circumstances are difficult. Prison officers do not receive sufficient recognition for the tough job they do. It must be a difficult task.

Senator Cummins paid tribute to the previous Governor of Mountjoy Prison. I wish to comment briefly on the current Governor who is doing an excellent job. He has only been in place for a short while, but he has made a determined effort to rid the prison of drugs. Senator Cummins referred to this point also. It is an appalling indictment of our system that someone who is not a drug addict might come out of prison a drug addict. I like the way Governor Whelan has made a determined effort not to allow drugs into the prison. He has taken significant action in that regard. I was astounded when I heard the cost of a net was €250,000, but one must bear in mind how fine and durable it must be. It is a good investment. He is a man who is clearly interested in the welfare of the people for whom he is responsible.

It is interesting that the issue has not been taken in hand quite so decisively up to now, but Governor Whelan has acted on it. There was a belief that a certain level of drug use in a prison made it easier to maintain, but that has not proved to be the case. However, I accept there was disruption in Mountjoy Prison subsequently. The reports I read indicated that the new regime had meant fights did not break out over ownership of drugs thrown over the wall. That activity caused a level of violence in itself. It takes time to adjust to a situation where it is not possible to bring in drugs. In a way, there was a facility that is no longer available. This is an enormous step on the road to having drug-free prisons. I commend the Governor on taking that action. It shows a fair level of determination on his part to clean up the prison system.

The Minister spoke about how many prison places were being established. Previous Ministers also decided it was time to shut down our Dickensian prison system. The previous Minister did not receive a great deal of support, particularly from a Member of the House who identified himself as someone who had become involved in public life because he was concerned about prisoner welfare. That individual stood in the way of progress in terms of the closure of Mountjoy Prison prior to the commencement of work to allow the Thornton Hall project to proceed. It is ironic that someone would want to keep a prison such as Mountjoy open.

I have never been in any of the country's prisons. That is a terrible admission which I intend to rectify. We have a duty to show that we care about standards in prisons. I accept there are prison visiting committees, of which public representatives are members. We have a duty to see the actual conditions in which people who are incarcerated live. The Minister referred to a changed system, of which Wheatfield Prison is an example. I intend to go there first. It is nicer to look at the future of the Irish Prison Service rather than, necessarily, the present. It is important to see the conditions in a prison such as Mountjoy. As it is a service that is being provided currently, it is relevant. I appreciate the amount of work involved and the transfer of interest in the rehabilitation of offenders rather than the focus being purely on incarceration.