Fiona O'Malley (Independent)

I do not agree with every word of the motion but certainly agree with the feeling behind it. I listened to the Minister of State's speech. When the debate came to this side of the House, enthusiasm became progressively cooler. Senator Dearey was clearly uncomfortable in making his remarks. I will bite the bullet and say I am not supporting the Government amendment. I am going to support Senator O'Toole's motion because I believe he is correct in contending that if we do not do anything proper to reform the Seanad, it will be gone.

I am from a party that believed in the abolition of the Seanad but, having spent some time here and having reflected maturely on the matter, I have come to the conclusion that it has its merits. However, it needs to be something totally different from what it is.

I totally disagree with the notion of moving over on the trough in dealing with the university panel seats just to allow those who have a degree access to voting rights in the Chamber. Change needs to be much more radical. I like what Senator O'Toole has proposed because I believe we need to proceed on a different basis. As other speakers have said, we should not mirror the Dáil. The Dáil elects Members for constituencies and it is their duty to represent them. We have a different duty in this House.

As a Member of this House, I noticed that one really must have the national interest at heart. This is one of the reasons I am not going to support the Government amendment. Opposing the other side of the House, in either direction, for the sake of it is nonsense. The motion before us is very good and deserves further consideration and support.

Having been in a political party and being a believer in the political party system of governance, I believe one needs some of the discipline that comes with being in a political party. This presents its own problem. Senator Ross spoke about people of the calibre of Ken Whitaker who stood for a certain position in the Seanad, naively or otherwise. It is great to think he could have been elected but our political system is tribal and its rules operate on a tribal basis. Unless one is a member of one of the political parties under the current system, one will not get elected.

I admired Senator Fitzgerald's honesty in referring to a general failure of Government. Senator Alex White spoke about this as well. Let us not be under any illusion about the fact that the Government will always protect the status quo. I am supporting the Independent Members' motion because change will only come from the Independent benches.

Bearing in mind the Minister of State's speech, I agree completely with Senator Alex White's comments on the establishment of an independent electoral commission. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, is in the other House dealing with the question of the Dublin mayor. That is not a priority for us at present. I would prefer if the Minister was bringing forward the Bill relating to the independent electoral commission which the country needs much more than the creation of another layer of government through the establishment of the position of a directly elected mayor for Dublin.

As previous speakers indicated, the Minister had the opportunity to prove that he would deal with the issue of Seanad reform. There is no need to reopen the matter because the previous Seanad did a great deal of work on it. Everyone is aware of what must happen. The Minister had the opportunity to take action, but he has failed to come back to the House and the people to demonstrate something can be done. He has illustrated the fact that Seanad reform is not a priority. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the House to bring about reform. If, as Senator O'Toole stated, the Seanad fulfilled the role originally envisaged for it, it would operate in a much better way.

There is a degree of antipathy on the part of the public towards the House. I was interested in Senator Fitzgerald's comments on how Fine Gael would put a question to the people in a referendum. I wonder about the nature of such a question and whether it would be as straightforward as asking whether people were in favour or opposed to Seanad Éireann remaining in operation. The answer to such a question would be an overwhelming no. That is the reality. Whether Fine Gael will get the opportunity to put such a question to the people is another matter.

As previous speakers stated, we have an opportunity to create a dynamic second force in Irish politics which would have greater relevance and in which, as Senator O'Toole stressed, ordinary citizens could feel their voice would be heard. That is the direction in which I would like the House to move. It is only through reform that this will be achieved. I hope this debate will progress the type of reform to which I refer and will encourage the Minister, Deputy Gormley, who will be under pressure from his colleagues in the Green Party to bring forward true proposals for reform and establish the independent electoral commission.