Joe O'Toole (Independent)

The Senator does not appear to have shared the view of his party leader on the future of the Seanad. I do not see that he has taken a public position different from his private position.

There were a number of interviews yesterday by a learned professor who came from British Columbia to Ireland to speak about civic society. A week before that many of us were in the North discussing with our counterparts there the idea of setting up a civic forum in Northern Ireland. This is an issue of great importance to everyone and everyone has got behind it. The operation of this House as contemplated by Bunreacht na hÉireann is a civic forum. It was never meant to be a mini-Dáil and I always opposed the idea of extra powers for the Seanad. It has enough power and was never intended to pervert the will of the people as articulated in the Lower House. The role of a second Chamber is different. What we are supposed to have is a deliberative Chamber with experienced people knowledgeable in certain areas reflecting all walks of life. That has not happened. The main point is that every citizen should be a stakeholder in the Chamber and should be entitled to have a vote in some form or other in this Chamber. That can be done in different ways.

I will dismiss some issues. There is nothing wrong with the idea of local authority members electing Members of the Upper House. In democracy that is a well-used system in various places around the world. It is a distillation of democracy where the people elect one level and that level elects an upper level. There is nothing wrong with that and the Dáil elects the Government in that same order. What is wrong is 43 of 60 seats being elected in that fashion, resulting in only 1,000 people effectively electing almost all the Upper House. That is wrong.

I have never been a member of a political party, although I was, through the teachers' union, president of the largest labour organisation in this country and general secretary of the largest, oldest and most widespread all-Ireland body in the trade union movement. The natural place for me to stand as contemplated by Bunreacht na hÉireann would be on the education or labour panels, although the world knows I would not get a vote on either of them because I am not a member of a political party. There is something wrong in that respect.