John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)

We will hold the Senator to that. I agree wholeheartedly with most of what Senator Butler said, but I want to take up a couple of issues. I agree that the State stepped in to save the banking system from collapse and on the day we introduced the bank guarantee scheme I stated it was something that turned my stomach but that we had to do it. The State did step in, but, unfortunately, in the stepping in we virtually brought the economy to the point of collapse. That is a slight exaggeration, but it has had significant knock-on effects. Senator Butler referred to the budgetary process. The fact that a four year agreement is being sought between the various political parties on the broad parameters of the budgetary layout shows how near to collapse the public finances have come.

I agree with Senator MacSharry that perhaps in certain elements of the media and among politicians too much emphasis has been placed on retribution. However, we have to look at it from the point of view of the people who will pay, ordinary taxpayers. At lunchtime today I spoke to a woman who works in the Houses of the Oireachtas. She told me the biggest loan she had ever taken out was to buy the carpet in her first house. She and thousands like her who never took out loans to buy second and third properties will, with those who took the big gambles, be asked in the next four budgets to take extraordinary cuts to their standard of living and incomes.

I am not an expert on French history, unlike the Minister of State, and I am not one for using the guillotine, but the authorities have to take immediate action to ensure those responsible for the banking collapse in this country and the other difficulties that have led to our current economic problems face justice. I am not speaking about retribution; I believe in equity. As such, if we will ask the general public to make extraordinary sacrifices, on the basis of equity, we have to ask that those who took the decisions be held to account for what they did. That is not asking too much.

The general public has shown extraordinary restraint. We see what is happening in France this week where it is proposed to raise the retirement age to 62 years. I did not realise the age of retirement in France was 60 years. When one compares that to what has happened here, the general public has shown extraordinary restraint. If we are facing into a budget that will reduce public expenditure by €5 billion or €6 billion, the general public has a right to expect that some of those who made the decisions which were responsible for bringing us to this crossroads will face justice for what they have done. Honestly, I do not get a sense from the Government that it is overly anxious to bring many of them to justice, but perhaps the Minister of State will correct me. Some of those who need to be brought to justice are politicians and the man in the cupboard, to whom reference was made, is the prime example. There is also the cosy relationship that continued for so long between the bankers, those in government and the Financial Regulator. I know an inquiry has been promised and will take place, but Garda investigations have to take their course before any charges can be brought. With the general public, we need to see more action being taken.

This is not specifically a debate on agreeing a four year budgetary plan, but I say to the Minister of State at the Department of Finance that if the Government is serious about engaging with the Opposition - at this stage I believe it is - there needs to be serious reform of the budgetary process. On budget day the Minister for Finance goes to the Dáil to present what is a fait accompli and for the rest of the day the Dáil votes on various motions. This is no longer acceptable; we need more rigorous engagement in the Houses of the Oireachtas, with Members on all sides being able to offer their opinions prior to the Minister presenting a budget. The announcement of the budget is less than seven weeks away.

I am not a financial expert but recently I was listening on the national airwaves to Mr. David McWilliams, with whom I sometimes agree, as he spoke about the level of investment in the country. This morning I listened to Mr. John Bruton who correctly extolled the virtues of the International Financial Services Centre which is comparable with any similar facility in the world and in some areas it is a world leader. Mr. McWilliams has referred to the fact that €300 billion from the United States has been invested in various funds in the IFSC, earning between 1% and 2% per annum. He has also made the point that the Government should engage in whatever measures are required to try to ensure this money is invested more productively in the economy. If a slightly higher rate of return was promised to those investing, much of this money could become available. Perhaps the Minister of State is in a position to outline his views on this and other potential sources of funds.

Senator Butler spoke about the choices the Government had to make and stated some people, more or less, wanted the banking system to collapse. No one suggested this. Everybody realises a working banking system is essential.