Dan Boyle (Green Party)

In Anglo Irish Bank, the €35 billion in losses is largely made up of deposits. The bondholders have €8 billion of the €35 billion and, of that €8 billion, close to €6 billion is held by senior debt holders and some €2 billion to €2.5 billion is held by subordinated bondholders. We have now made a decision in regard to extending the bank guarantee until the end of this year, and as subordinated bondholders are not included in that, we can deal with some of that €2.5 billion. In terms of the senior bondholders, there is still an obligation to meet some of those debts because, very often, they are not mythical people but the same people - perhaps in international banks or international pension funds - from whom we as a State have to borrow.

The essence of this problem has been from the start that if we did not tackle the debts that were put upon us by these institutions and if we allowed default to happen, given our public finances are in such a state, our ability to borrow and to do so at effective rates of interest would be utterly compromised. That is where the problem has been all along. Until we understand that as a political system and until we are able to convince the general public of that problem, we will not move forward on this issue. This is why today's meeting of the party leaders is at least a sign of hope.

There is a linkage between the statement of the Minister for Finance on the banking situation and our ongoing budgetary situation. It has been claimed in political point-scoring in this Chamber, particularly on the Order of Business in recent days, that somehow figures have been hidden and that the situation has been known to be worse for a considerable period. The reality is that until this statement was made, until the analysis was done in regard to what the actual end-figures for the banks would be for the banking situation and until there was a response by international rating agencies and others as to how that affected the cost of borrowing in this country, we did not know the increase in the cost of the public finances. We have regular public announcements regarding how the budgetary strategy is progressing every month, whether the tax take is in line and where public expenditure is going. Throughout 2010 and until this statement was made, all the figures were on course. It was the intention to have a budget with an adjustment of €3 billion - this again has been misrepresented in debate and in media reporting - made up of some public expenditure cuts, some capital expenditure cuts and some changes in the tax system. This seems to have been missed by many who either deliberately choose to misrepresent the situation or have no real understanding of the nature of the problem at hand.

That said, now that we have the actual banking figures, outlining the truly horrendous cost of €35 billion for one institution in particular and a possible maximum cost of €50 billion, the real public frustration is that - I am being very careful with my words - it is known that key individuals in ownership and managerial positions in many of these institutions have behaved in a criminal manner. The fact there has not been a legal liability for this action is an ongoing matter of shame for this country and something that causes a great deal of public anger. Until we address the issue of individuals who through their greed, incompetence and negligence brought about this situation, we will not progress and get the type of confidence we need within our public as well as international confidence in restoring our economic well-being. I am not sure whether it is our common law legal system or reluctance as to how we go about dealing with white collar crime, but until we introduce a culture where people who have committed crimes of this nature and scale are treated in an appropriate way, we as a country are diminished. This cannot be said strongly enough.

I hope the individuals concerned will be identified, called upon by prosecuting authorities and dealt with by the judicial system adequately, quickly and with all legal principles intact. It is important that people are brought to account. This is a truly horrendous sum that has inflicted huge damage on our economy, and it will take many years to repair properly. The fact it happened at all has unnecessarily put the country in a situation where, despite our wealth and our potential to be an even wealthier, more prosperous and more equal society, we are forced to deal with issues of this type before dealing with more pressing social equity issues. That is the real shame of this debate.

That said, these interminable and regular debates are necessary as part of the national conversation we must have to make sure we get this right. What has been put right has to be acknowledged - again, this is a failing of the Opposition - in terms of the regulatory system, improvements in the Central Bank, reports from people such as Messrs Regling and Watson and the report introduced by the Governor of the Central Bank. It is to be hoped Mr. Nyberg's inquiry will be successful. In addition, the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service has done good work. All of these are helping to peel away the layers of an infected and diseased onion. We must remove every layer before we can have a banking system of which we can be proud and which will help to restore our tarnished reputation on the international front.

The prime culprits in all of this, namely, Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society, infected their counterparts. I refer, in the case of Irish Nationwide Building Society, to the EBS and, in that of Anglo Irish Bank, to AIB. The scale of the infection created a rollercoaster effect, whereby we are now obliged to deal with a problem that is greater than should have been the case. Mistakes have undoubtedly been made in trying to deal instantly with the scale of the problem. One of those which must be acknowledged relates to Anglo Irish Bank, one of the major financial institutions. The Government did not move quickly enough to ensure the changes necessary at management level were made. Those who were part of the problem - members, one could state, of the ancien régime at the bank - and had created many of the difficulties were allowed to linger too long. These individuals failed to deal with the difficulties to which I refer.

We now know the nature and scale of the problem and have introduced many of the changes that are necessary. New directors and chief executives have been put in place in the banks. The only thing the State and its political system to need do now is ensure the people will have confidence that these mistakes will never be repeated. The fact that questions remain about the latter remains a challenge to all of us.