David Norris (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State who must be used to turning up in this House and listening to what we have to say. I will try not to repeat too much of what I have said before because I have spoken in most of the major financial debates. There is a responsibility on all of us to contribute at this very difficult time.

One of the hopeful signs is that what I have heard of today's debate has been constructive on both sides. I welcome the contributions of Senators MacSharry and Donohoe who always has a balanced and reasonable tone. This morning he remarked on the figure of more than €80 billion in savings. I presume people are saving in banks or, as I am doing, prize bonds. He suggested a degree of hope and the optimism about which Senator MacSharry was talking about when he referred to team Ireland would lift us out of this rut. If we can create a degree of confidence, some of that money may be released back into the economy for productive purposes. That is something I would certainly welcome. It would be an extremely important development.

This is a huge problem and there is no point in simply venting anger. Anger is an enormous reserve of energy, but unless it is channelled productively and creatively, it is negative and creates further damage. For that reason, we need to establish the clear facts, address them and move on. This country has got out of much worse situations. We have had a very troubled history. I am not a dyed in the wool green republican and have never used phrases such as 800 years of brutal British oppression or the jackboot. However, we have had a very troubled history, but we managed to rise out of it and in the middle of an extremely difficult situation, domestically and internationally, create an independent and vital country. We are moving towards 2016. Whatever one thinks about them, a group of brave people with a certain vision established the independence of this country and it will be a reproach to all of us in the political system if we find in 2016 that our financial and political affairs are being directed by forces outside the country which are not concerned about the welfare and interests of the Irish people. In the middle of this catastrophe, we have to ensure that in rectifying our financial situation we do not remove humanity from the equation and that we leave society with a human face.

It is also important that we do not betray the current generation of young people. I visited UCD last night to speak to the law society but I was kidnapped into an enormous meeting of the student representative council, which was planning a huge march on the issue of fees. I managed to dissipate the tremendous ovation I received by stating that fees need to be considered in light of the serious situation in which we find ourselves. Free fees is a nonsensical and ugly phrase and it is also an oxymoron because one either charges fees or one has freedom. I believe in equality and the noble words in the 1916 declaration about cherishing all the children of the nation equally. Given that registration fees already stand at €1,500 and will probably increase to €3,000, residence in UCD costs €4,5000 and then money must be found for books, travel and food, it must cost at least €10,000 per year to educate a young person at third level. These costs must exclude wide sections of society. Our meagre resources need to be directed at ensuring all who are qualified can attend third level education. I would prefer a free universal education system but until we have a tax regime that is similar to that in the Scandinavian countries, it is not a practical reality. I had to advise the students of my opinion, although I doubt I won many votes by doing so. I told them I always believed in telling the truth, even when it was unpalatable or vote losing.

The bounce will come because of the qualities of creativity, innovation and imagination about which Senator Harris spoke so movingly on the Order of Business. These are the resources which businesses internationally recognise as the most fruitful grounds for success. It would be a great tragedy if our young people found it impossible to stay around to contribute to their country. It is already tragic that the overwhelming majority of our recently graduated nurses are using their undoubted talents and special qualities in the UK's health service. I remind Senators of the cost of that to the taxpayer.

I remarked earlier there is not much point in railing against the banks. I was interested to watch Vincent Browne do a real job on Michael Soden on "Tonight with Vincent Browne" last night. Mr. Soden thought he was being invited to promote his book but he was also asked about the culture of cronyism and the golden circle in the banks. He seemed to take a NIMBY attitude in arguing that such practices were prevalent in other banks but not the Bank of Ireland. There was a problem in that people were being appointed because of personal contacts and it is important we look beyond that small circle. I was astonished to hear the responses of the senior commentators and financial experts when Vincent Browne asked whether a deaf and dumb person picked from the street could have made a worse mess as director. They tried to evade the question but eventually admitted such an individual would have been no worse. That is a serious problem.

It is an obscenity that the greatest transfer of wealth from the poor, the weak and the vulnerable to the rich I have ever witnessed is currently taking place. The money has not evaporated. I ask the Minister of State if it is impossible to learn the identities of the bondholders. I am told it is impossible but I hope that is not the case because we are writing a blank cheque to cover the gambling expenses of senior figures in the financial world and we do not even know who will cash it. It was suggested in the other House that some of the discredited bankers are bondholders. Particularly when we are imposing charges such as the 50 cent prescription fee on the terminally ill and the homeless, it is intolerable that we may be rewarding negligence to the point of criminality. It appears we are witnessing what I call the Leona Helmsly effect. When that extraordinary New York speculator was brought up on tax charges, she stated she believed only the little people pay tax. The little people are now paying for the indiscretion, stupidity, folly and greed of the bankers.

Senator MacSharry made a number of interesting suggestions when he appeared recently on a radio programme. He raised an issue which I subsequently addressed on the Order of Business regarding our bonds, the interest on which has been forced up to unacceptable levels by the completely discredited ratings agencies. They should not be allowed near the markets. I understand we are not allowed to use our own funds to invest in our own bonds because of a technical legal hitch. I ask the Minister of State whether amending legislation could be introduced to allow us to benefit from the yield on our own bonds. I am glad to see that interest rates have eased recently, however.

That we face a very serious situation was clear from the demeanour of the party representatives as they left the Department of Finance on Monday. They were so shocked that, unusually, they did not think it appropriate to score political points. That is useful, at least. We are left to address a difficult, but not impossible, situation. It is probably unrealistic to believe we can meet the 3% deficit target by 2014 and if it is attempted in a savage way it might lead to a serious contraction in the economy with further negative repercussions down the road.

Other problems have emerged in recent days in the broader political sphere. An interesting but troubling article was published in today's The Irish Times about the move by Chancellor Merkel and President Sarkozy to introduce a formalised version of the emergency measures used to assist European economies in difficulty. As I understand these measures will be confined to the euro area, the United Kingdom will not be able to veto them. This proposal might require a referendum. I would be interested in hearing the Minister of State's perspective on the problems such a referendum might produce in our current difficulties. It would be a difficult issue to address irrespective of what Government is in power.

The same newspaper also carried an article by Vincent Browne pointing out the continued existence of significant tax breaks. If a wealthy person invests €100,000 annually in a pension fund, the State will pay €48,000.

I understand the reasons this measure was introduced, and I do not believe it was particularly for very wealthy people. It should be stopped instantly because it is not supportable at present. We need to examine this situation in order to give people the confidence that it is not just the ordinary person on the street who is being left again with the bill.

Another issue needs to be considered. When I suggested that, for example, Anglo Irish Bank should be left to the operation of market forces, which should not be suspended, and that it should be left to go down, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, said it was of systemic importance. This suggests that, nationally and internationally, the system is seen as more important than the people. I do not think so. In a previous debate, a speaker said the Greek word for "crisis" has a root which is the same as that for the word "opportunity". We need to take this opportunity to re-examine radically the position of banks in our country and to avoid a situation where, for example, the outfall flowing from this affects all kinds of other issues. One example of this is the hotel industry. Banks are repossessing and coming to own hotels, and then opening them at less than cost in competition with others which are desperately trying to run their own legitimate enterprises. The infection is spreading down the chain and for that reason we need to investigate.

It has been stated in a newspaper that we are still one of the 15 richest countries in the world. Will the Minister of State tell us whether this is true? I note that when we were said to be one of the richest countries in the world, it was based on an analysis of the value of property. I would be surprised, and extremely glad, if we were still one of the 15 richest countries in the world, but I am not sure that information is accurate.