Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)

I enjoyed Senator McDonald's speech. Although I did not agree with some of it - some of her comments were scandalous - it generally reached the core of the issue. Her passion cannot be questioned. It was wrong of the Senator to refer to some of the public sector workers in our education system as dross. It should be made clear that those who deliver education services within the VEC system and at the front line in our schools face many challenges. During previous debates on education, we have mentioned that teachers must deal with changing social attitudes. It is much more difficult to control a classroom today than it was many years ago. It is unfortunate to call anyone dross, but I especially regret the use of that term with regard to those who provide public services and educate our future entrepreneurs, Deputies and Senators, etc.

I agree with Senator McDonald in so far as I do not think the amalgamation of certain VECs represents the solution to the problems in this area. We need to consider whether it will help us to ensure the best educational services are provided to children. What will the amalgamation of the VECs achieve? The Minister of State said it will save €3 million. Will that saving be repeated every year? Is it a current or a capital saving? The only aspect of the €3 million saving that was itemised by the Minister of State was the sale of buildings, which would be a once-off saving for the State. He said the special group suggested that €3 million would be saved and he was satisfied that something in that order was reasonable. It is unlikely that front-line workers will lose their jobs as a result of the amalgamation. The Croke Park agreement means it is doubtful that chief executive officers will take wage reductions. They will be moved into different positions and will keep their salaries and the payments they receive. Few savings will be made. There are a number of examples of regionalisation of services, including the health boards and the HSE and the centralisation of the medical card system. They have all been highly criticised by both sides of the House as resulting in inefficiencies. I am not convinced this effort, whether right or wrong, is the best approach to meet the future needs of the VEC in education in this State. Will it result in the cost benefits on which the Government is hinging this project?

I challenge the Minister of State or the Minister to publish a report. We talk about consensus and transparency, so let us publish the document showing the cost benefit analysis of all of this, where the savings will be made, how they will be made and the greater efficiencies.

The Minister of State talked about procurement. We do not need mergers of VECs to deal with procurement. There is no reason we cannot look at joint procurement now. We do not have to wait 18 months for that happen. VECs and, indeed, local authorities are following that path, on which they must be commended, and the merger of VECs is not required.

What buildings, or VEC headquarters, is it proposed to sell? I am sure the Minister of State and Minister have an idea, although perhaps they do not and this is a back of the envelope job. Many of these courses and unique services to communities are provided in the headquarters of VECs.

Senator McDonald spoke in very passionate terms. I agree with her that there is the issue of the VEC gravy train. The Minister could take steps today to ensure it is stopped in its tracks. It is not unique to Fine Gael. Ministers and Members of the Oireachtas can design legislation stating there will be so many parents' representatives, community representatives and so on but I served on Donegal VEC and a community representative on that VEC was a Fianna Fáil TD while the other community representatives were directors of elections for Fianna Fáil.

The following is a little anecdote of how bizarre the situation is and how some people on the VEC see it as a gravy train. Myself and the parents' representative, a democratically elected person, were the only people who did not get on to any board of management in Donegal VEC. I did not want to be on the majority of them because they were not in my area, they were too far away and there were people who were perhaps better placed. Members of that VEC served on four or five different boards of management. Due to the coming together of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, which controlled the VEC, myself and the parents' representative were kept off boards of management.

Someone from the top end of Donegal was appointed - it takes me two hours to travel the length of my constituency, not to mention there is another one - to the board of management of a school in the bottom end of the constituency. That is not unique. That is done time and again because when one goes to board of management meetings, one can claim one's expenses. That is what it is all about. The Minister must step in. That could be done now and we should not have to wait 18 months for issues such as that to be stopped.

If we merge VECs and do not regulate the system, there will be an even greater problem. VECs will transcend three counties. Imagine the person from whatever party living in that part of Leitrim which borders Donegal getting travel expenses to travel to Longford for the fortnightly management meeting. They are small issues but they are issues of public confidence and cost savings.

I question whether this will be a cost saving exercise. Some capital expenditure will be saved. What is unique about VECs is the partnership approach. Some work better than others, as do some schools, and that is all because of the talents people bring to the table. There must be more hands-on management by the boards with elected representatives and other members of the boards stepping up to the plate in these matters and better oversight by the Department of Education and Skills which funds the VECs to ensure the standards are up to scratch.

Senator McDonald touched on a point I was going to raise. We are talking about amalgamating VECs. Some 29 of the 33 will be amalgamated. This House debated the Student Support Bill two years ago. Students are contemplating dropping out of college because they cannot get their grant payments. It is on this the Minister should concentrate. Last week Carlow VEC, Clare VEC, Cork VEC, Donegal VEC, City of Dublin VEC, County Dublin VEC, Dun Laoghaire VEC, Galway VEC, Kildare VEC, Kilkenny VEC, Leitrim VEC, Limerick VEC, Longford VEC, Louth VEC, Meath VEC, Monaghan VEC, Offaly VEC, Roscommon VEC, Sligo VEC, Tipperary North VEC, Tipperary South VEC, City of Waterford VEC, County Waterford VEC, Westmeath VEC and Wicklow VEC had not issued a single grant payment. It is in absolutely chaos. People are dropping out of college. Let us look at the service and the client, the people who need the education and the help. That is what the Minister should focus on and not on amalgamating VECs which will not result in any benefits.